
If you haven't read the original post, please start here.
I’m not a smart man. But I know what Love Is. - Forrest Gump
Several years ago at church, Craig and I sat through a sermon condemning homosexuality. As I listened to the sermon, which was based upon two lines of scripture in the New Testament, every fiber in my body rejected the message. My palms sweated, my heart pounded, and I started to feel queasy. I left the church building that day on fire and didn’t get a good night’s sleep for a month.
Instead of sleeping, I spent my nights scouring scripture, researching the positions of different denominations, and praying and praying and praying some more. I wrote this to several ministers: “I am a Christian and a seeker and I’m trying desperately to reconcile God’s commandment to love my neighbor without judgment and the church’s stance on homosexuality. Would you discuss this with me?” Not one minister wrote back. Every morning when the sun finally came up, I’d call Sister at work. She’d answer her phone with: “We’re gonna talk about the gays again, aren’t we, Sister?” Yes, Sister. Yes, we are. Clear your schedule.
Figuring out my stance on homosexuality felt like a life and death decision. When I described the intensity of my concern to other Christians, most would say, “but, why? You don’t even have a gay family member.” This response was very confusing to me. Isn’t the whole point of Christianity that we are all family? That we should love our neighbors as ourselves? That if any of us is hungry, we are all hungry? That if any of us is oppressed, we are all oppressed? According to the Jesus I read about in the Gospels, these people who were being persecuted for their sexuality WERE my family. The children who were killing themselves because the world (and the church in particular) would not accept them WERE my children. And I thought that being a Christian required me to love them, to ache for them, to fight for them with the same urgency I would have if I were fighting for myself. The fact that I had never met them before was completely inconsequential, according to Jesus.
I have these new friends named Jaime and Laura…they’re gay and married. They love each other very much. I recently looked through their photos and noticed that their wedding looked a lot like mine. Actually, their lives look a lot like mine, except that their son, Simon, is very sick with a heart condition. So I’m not sure they really give a rat’s ass right now if Christians “accept” them or call their love for each other “sinful” or not because they are quite busy caring for each other and Simon and running between hospitals and home and having a brutiful life together. But I’m glad they slowed down enough to know me, because my life is better with them in it. I love them, and I love Simon.
The following exerpt is based on one of my favorite passages from Huckleberry Finn, and I think it sums up the decision I’ve made about Laura and Jaime’s family.
“Whenever I think of the word “empathy,” I think of a small boy named Huckleberry Finn contemplating his friend and runaway slave, Jim. Huck asks himself whether he should give Jim up or not. Huck was told in Sunday school that people who let slaves go free go to everlasting fire.” But then, Huck says he imagines he and Jim in “the day and nighttime, sometimes moonlight, sometimes storms, and we a-floating along, talking and singing and laughing.” Huck remembers Jim and their friendship and warmth. He imagines Jim not as a slave but as a human being and he decided that, “alright, then, I’ll go to hell.” - This I Believe, 172
When I say things like this my Christian friends get very alarmed. They say to me: Aren’t you afraid of saying and writing these things? Aren’t you afraid of God?
Well, yes. But when I consider discussing all of these things over with Jesus one day, when I imagine telling Him what I thought I heard Him saying to me, when I explain how my heart understood His message, I realize that I’d be much more afraid to stand in front of Him if I didn’t write these things. I know my Jesus, I love Him, and I think if he needed me to believe that homosexuality was a sin, He would have mentioned it. He didn’t. When deciphering the message of Jesus, I weigh the Gospels heavier than any other part of the Bible. And when Jesus said that marriage was between a man and a woman, he was responding to a question about divorce, not sexuality.* And even the Gospels… well, even though they are gospel to me, I accept that they are also interpretations of what Jesus said and did and meant…we don’t have a single written word directly from Jesus. He could have left us something….he could have left another list of rights and wrongs when He came to Earth, but he chose not to. The only words he ever wrote were in the sand. . . words that He knew would disappear almost immediately. ** The answers, my friend... are blowing in the wind. Why? I don't know. Maybe He wanted us to know him well enough to make our decisions about Him based on our relationship with Him. Maybe He wanted us to wrestle with Him, to work out our own faith with fear and trembling. That’s what I think, anyway. I think I’m starting to recognize His still, small voice. And I’m betting everything on my belief in our relationship, on my understanding of His character and love. Aren’t we all? And if I’m wrong, and I very well could be . . . I don’t really think He’ll send me to hell for it. I think He knows I’m doing the best I can down here. I know He knows that. I believe.
And while we’re at it . . . that still, small voice suggests to me often that He'd appreciate if Christians picked up a couple more issues other than homosexuality and abortion to address. You know, maybe a couple He actually mentioned…like care for the poor and sick and lonely and hungry and imprisoned and widowed and orphaned and recently immigrated.
Last week I was stuck at a stop light behind a Luxury SUV sporting a huge abortion bumper sticker with a picture of a baby that read, “It is a poverty that a child must die so that you can live how you wish.”- Mama T.
Well, okay. Fair enough. Mama T certainly removed the plank in her own eye before discussing the specks in others. She took a vow of poverty and dedicated her entire life to serving the least of these. She also announced at a Nobel Peace Dinner that any woman considering an abortion could instead give her baby to her Sisters of Charity, and they would find a way to care for it. Mama T earned the right to step in by constantly stepping up.
But for the rest of us, some of whom are most comfortable addressing pro-life issues vehicularly . . . might we also discuss how many starving children our car payments could feed every month? Isn’t it also a poverty that children must starve so that we can drive what we wish?
I just think that if we are going to call ourselves pro-life, we must also agree that starvation and poverty and disease and immigration and health care for all and war and peace and the environment are also pro-life issues. And that if we really care about making a difference and honoring God- given life, we might want to meet with the Man in the Mirror before calling anybody else out. And maybe in the meantime we could have a bumper sticker made that says: "We are all Confused Hypocrites. But God Loves Us anyway, which is Good News. So out of Gratitude, We are Trying to Remember That We Belong To Each Other." I'd buy that one.
My point is that this gay ship has sailed, I think. We’re gonna have to sponsor another revolution because for the gays, the times, they are a’ changing already. Gay people wrote to me by the hundreds to tell me that they read the post again and again, pretending that the letter was from their own parents. Therapists requested my permission to use the letter with their gay and straight clients to teach them about unconditional love. Churches from all over the country asked to use the post in their weekly bulletins. A student at UC Berkley told me that her professor of religious studies distributed the letter to all of his students. I felt very humble about this, which is why I only wear my homemade “THE RELIGIOUS STUDIES PROFESSOR AT UC BERKLEY DISTRIBUTED MY POST TO ALL HIS STUDENTS” T-shirt to bed. And sometimes to the grocery store, when I'm having an insecure day.
But I also received challenging responses to my post. None were mean-spirited, none were offensive. People are better than we give them credit for.
Many people said that they agree that people are born gay, but that it is still a sin to act on it. These people suggested that homosexuals should remain celibate.
But my understanding is that celibacy is a sacred calling, not a hiding place or a consequence. Celibacy is like…it’s like we all have the same capacity to love inside of us, the same amount of light to shine……and most of use that light, that love, like a laser…it’s all concentrated and focused on one partner. But the celibate hears a call to use his light, his love, more like a flood light. He knows that if he’s not required to shine a laser on one person, that his light can be dispersed to many more….maybe not burning a hole into another heart, but lighting up entire rooms. He can reach more people with his love through celibacy because it’s not all focused on one person. Ghandi felt called to be a flood light instead of a laser…and heeded the call to celibacy while he was married. His wife accepted this as the way he was being called to serve his God and his people. And so celibacy…it’s a sacred calling to love. And I fear that when we suggest that homosexuals save themselves by choosing celibacy, that we insult both the gays and the celibates. Celibacy is not a Plan B.
Other Monkees have explained that they believe that homosexuality is a sin, but no more of a sin than pride and anger and selfishness. And since we are all sinners too, we shouldn’t judge the gays. Hate the sin, love the sinner type thing. I don’t know. I guess I have just always accepted the fact that we are put on this Earth to love. To Love God and love our neighbors. And those sins, pride, anger, and selfishness…those sins get in the way of loving God and loving our neighbors. So we should fight them tooth and nail. We should fight them to the death. But homosexuality…I can’t see how a woman sharing her God given light with another woman interferes with her Loving Her God and Loving Her Neighbor.
Unless we come back to: because it says so in the Bible. And we have faith that our understanding of the Bible is infallible. We believe that our human minds can grasp the meaning of all scripture perfectly and so we have faith that homosexuality is a sin.
But you know what the Bible also says? The Bible says “And these three remain. Hope, Faith, and Love. And the greatest of these is love." ***
There will come a point when hope and faith cease to exist. When the next world is revealed, we will know . . . we won’t need hope or faith anymore. Those two are temporary. Hope and faith exist only to help us make it though this life.
But LOVE. Love is eternal. Love never ends. The love we offer and receive in this world we’ll carry with us into the next. The greatest of these is love. When in doubt, I choose love above any particular ideas offered to me about faith.
And that means that I love my gay friends, without agenda. And I love my friends who believe that homosexuality is a sin, without agenda. And I love my friends who are terrified for my soul when I write this way, without agenda.
Because listen – here’s the thing. After my wrestling match with God, I wasn’t really exhausted enough. I still came up swinging. For a little while, I felt angry. Angry at anyone who had a different understanding of scripture than I did. Angry at people who taught that God disapproved of homosexuality. Prideful about my position, really. And then one day God sat my butt down with the Bible again.
And he said something to me like, “Wait a minute, Lovie. Yes, I love those gays, but I love the ones picketing against them every bit as much. That’s the point.”
And There’s the rub. There’s Christianity. It’s not deciding that one group shouldn’t be judged and then turning around and judging the other group. That is not being a peacemaker. Peacemakers resist categorizing people. They find the light, the good, in each and every person. They don’t try to change people, except by example. They know everyone has something important to teach. They are humble about their ideas and their opinions. They try to find common ground, always.
I now have friends who are gay and friends who preach against homosexuality. I have friends who are ministers and friends who are atheists. Listen, I even have a new friend who is a Dallas Cowboys fan. With God, all things are possible.
The point is – if you’re hungry - you are all welcome at my table. None of you is less welcome than the other. This place is a banquet table for gays and straights and prudes and hoochies and cheerleaders and tuba players and pharisees and alpha moms and slacker moms and tax collectors and fishermen and choir girls and heathens. It's a banquet table where people who are different can come together and share a meal and maybe not change each other’s minds, but possibly soften each other’s hearts.
Oh, yes…we can do that. We already have.
You do not have to agree with me to love me.
So at this table, this Momastery table . . . we talk to each other in soft voices, and we smile and we say, “pass the wine, please,” and we ask about each other’s children. Sometimes we even pass around some pictures. We share our families with each other. And we also share some of those magical laughs when we can’t speak and the tears are rolling and we’re gasping for breath and our stomachs hurt like we just did a hundred crunches. Maybe we even pee a little. And maybe in the middle of all that, we start knowing each other as people instead of categories. And we accept that we are different, and we understand that each person’s choices are her own, and so we don’t have to be angry with each other. We are free to love each other.
Love,
G
*Mark 10
**John 8
***1 Corinthians 13
One of the best posts I've read anywhere on the internet in a long time. Thank you.
ReplyDeletei love you. you brave shameless beautiful soul you.
ReplyDeleteThis post will leave me pondering your words for a while to come-
ReplyDeletewhich, in my mind, is the definition of a brilliant and heartfelt post. Although I devoured all of it, for me, your most profound words were:
"And There’s the rub. There’s Christianity. It’s not deciding that one group shouldn’t be judged and then turning around and judging the other group. That is not being a peacemaker. "
You could not have said it better.
Oh GDo, your brilliance is just numbing...I can only muster up tears right now. This hoochie wants a permanent seat at the table. The table of Love, the Momastery table. And I'd really love one of those bumper stickers too...you know, the confused hypocrites one. Too perfect.
ReplyDeleteSo much LOVE to everyone!
I love your writing. Momastery is the only blog I have ever read or even seen. Truly. Nothing you have ever written has ever upset me, caused me to question your politics, views or opinions. Nor have you ever caused me to doubt the extraordinary parental expertise with which my friends Bubba and St. Patti have raised you.....until now. Friendship with a Dallas Cowboy fan?? What's next? Letting their kids go to school with our kids?
ReplyDeleteKeep fighting the fight. DM.
What an amazing way to start my day! Fabulous post, G. I find myself saying, Right On!! Of Course!! and then wishing that I could be a little less judgemental about those that persecute. But maybe that's the point. I'll try to be more understanding of them, you know, setting an example thingy. Thank you thank you thank you.
ReplyDeleteAmen, sister.
ReplyDelete(Jingle Bella)
You've still got it:) Loved this!
ReplyDelete"I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world." (1 Corinthians 5:9-10)
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't have an opinion on homosexuality and Christianity. I think I believe that a strict Biblical interpretation is correct. But honestly, it's not something with which I can muster the pride or gumption to concern myself. My son's godparents are gay; even if I was convinced this very night that homosexuality is sinful and all homosexuals are going to Hell, I would still love them and welcome them into my family and my life and be happily willing to lay down my life for them. I'm perfectly okay with that.
It's interesting that anyone would ask if you fear Hell for having an opinion regarding homosexuality that doesn't mesh with the cultural norm. I've gone through a time where I deeply feared Hell. I knew in my core that that's where I was going to go. One day I simply stopped and asked myself, What is it about Hell that I fear? Is it the suffering? Well, no. I really have no context for understanding eternal soul-pain,and I've never been one to shrink from pain. What I feared was being separated eternally from my Source, my Beloved, my very Being. Even if God could somehow offer contentment and peace and calm apart from Him, I would prefer the anguish of Hell if He could be found there. Because when you get right down to it -- when you ignore the more colorful language of Revelations and Dante -- all that Hell is is separation from He Who Is Love.
And when you understand that, why would you in any way deprive yourself of love towards anyone? Why wouldn't you do everything you can to increase the love here -- bringing God, Eternal and Immaterial though He is, as close to us as possible? What have we to fear if not a deficit of Love? Hell has no power; Hell is, in fact, a Lack. It's a Negative. The only way to combat it is with Abundance and Generosity and Love.
Sorry. Now you've got me on a tear. I promise I'll try not to hijack your comments anymore. :)
Much Love,
-Sharyn
love you!! I'm sending this to my mama.
ReplyDeletekrystal
Glennon -
ReplyDeleteI find the whole segment regarding the Lexus driver entirely counter to everything else you write. As you talk about everyone being welcome to the table and that "if we really care about making a difference and honoring God- given life, we might want to meet with the Man in the Mirror before calling anybody else out," you single this person out when you know nothing about how they live their life, how they humble themselves for God or how they serve God. You may not agree with their belief system or their way of expressing it, but isn't the whole point of your post that you should love everyone, anyways?
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ReplyDeleteyep, good point.
ReplyDeletei am a confused hypocrite, for sure. but God loves me anyway. Me and the fancy car driver and you. Good News.
love, g
Amazing insight Master of Light! Thank you!
ReplyDeleteHow did a foul-mouthed hooligan like me score you as a friend? I dunno, but I'm grateful. You never cease to amaze me.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I love me some gays.
Also, this makes me "small but deep" facebook comment this morning seem even funnier.
ReplyDeleteWhat to say....
ReplyDeleteI am disappointed to read that no pastor stepped forward to have a conversation with you about this. Really disappointed.
Everyone, especially pastors, should step up to the plate, engage in difficult conversations such as these. We shouldn't shy away from talking about hard issues--issues that challenge our faith and our world view. That's how we grow, that's how we learn----to be stretched beyond what is comfortable for us. To hear and engage in things that may cause us to squirm a bit. It's good to give our souls a good shake. To seek--always. The second we become complacent--that's when we're in a bad spot. The second we think we have it all figured out---that's damnation. Till my dying day, I hope I continue to wrestle with and engage in good conversation about difficult issues such as these.
Happy seeking, Glennon.
Scripture makes us uncomfortable sometimes...either by its silence or in its clarity. To my conviction scripture is clear regarding sexuality. I have been persuaded by the Word of God, by thousands of years of faithful interpretation, and by the sweet voice of the Spirit. As uncomfortable as this may make me personally, I cannot 'unconvict' myself. It is hard for me to reconcile my affection and my sympathy for my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, and the teachings of the scripture. I think to myself...if they are loving each other well, how can that be wrong? But my emotions are not my authority. God's word is. Main point to think about when you decide for yourself what God thinks about an issue is what you think about scripture. If you think Scripture is true, God breathed, and relevant to our lives today, then you base everything else on those points. I think there are tons of people telling us how to live our lives today. I choose Scripture as my handbook. I cannot follow it well because I am a true sinner, but I'm thankful I have a handbook. I can live my best life while trying to live a godly one only with God's grace and mercy, and the gift of forgiveness through the love of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteI encourage you to keep beating down those doors of pastors who will meet with you and stay in prayer on the issues that you have with "the church." The church is where God wants us all. Especially a church that teaches that scripture has all authority.
G - A couple of weeks ago our pastor (Stephen Smith-Cobbs at Trinity Presbyterian) gave an amazing sermon about sexuality. Your words are not his (and vice versa), but the final parts of this post really mirror his sermon. He urged us all to communicate with each other, to wrestle with ourselves and to love one another WITHOUT turning everyone else into the "them".
ReplyDeleteHe'd write you back. :) That's why I love him.
Amazing post. Love, love, love, love it.
:)MK
(PS - I loved the SUV part. Bumper stickers like that are divisive and Mother Theresa was not herself divisive. And, you/we would all still welcome that driver to the table too. She might already be here, after all.)
Wowsers, I have been having similar struggles. May your simple, thoughful, spiritual words from a Higher Power reach as many people as it can...I'm certainly passing it along. Thanks.
ReplyDeletebeautiful post glen. save me a seat at the table (and a bumper sticker too) xoxo
ReplyDeleteGlennon - so much insight, so much love. Thanks for making me think this morning. xx Kathleen
ReplyDeleteA friend forwarded your blog a few weeks ago and I laughed so damn hard that I cried. So glad she did - I needed a good laugh. Now I read this thought-provoking post and it also brought some tears b/c it put into words some of the issues with religion that I'm dealing with. I have a hard time loving my 'neighbors' when fear and divisiveness is what they are handing out. But I am no better if I throw back anger and hate! Love your blog - love that you are not afraid to speak your mind and pass along a message of unity and respect.
ReplyDeleteI found your blog through Part One of this post and haven't stopped reading since. The journey you tell of here could be my own, and you've shed so much light for me. Please don't ever stop writing! I can see God is speaking through you.
ReplyDelete-Becky
I hope I can make this brief, but probably not. I'd like to share the perspective of a practicing Christian in the left wing of the Church.
ReplyDeleteI live in the San Francisco Bay area, which is well known for being more gay-friendly than most of the US. This also means that this is a part of the country where folks who have felt rejected by their families and communities are a large part of the population. The Episcopal Church here is particularly liberal and our Bishop in the 80's looked out at a city struggling with the AIDS crisis and proclaimed that these suffering and frightened were his sheep. Because we have a seminary in Berkeley, we have lots of clergy who come out here to study and never leave. Many of those are gay, many others are just really left-wing.
For me and my family, the Episcopal clergy in our life are great friends and mentors. And, unshockingly, many of them are gay. In an effort to be reasonably concise, I'm only going to talk about the most Godly one I know. Davidson has been a Deacon with us for about 4 years. Episcopal Deacons are ordained, but keep their "day jobs" and serve in churches and ministries in services and in outreach projects primarily. Davidson preaches regularly, he reads the Gospel in the service each week, he ardently supports our work as a site for a rotating homeless shelter in the county, and he is an amazing party planner (a total stereotype, I know. But he and I did an event together and it really was fabulous).
Davidson has been with his partner Edwin for 31 years (or was it 32?). They were legally married in that brief period between the judge's verdict allowing full marriage rights and Prop 8. They are welcoming, loving and kind. They throw a great dinner party (another stereotype) and give a large portion of their income to charity. It's definitely above the biblical tithe-- and Edwin lovingly keeps Davidson on a little bit of a budget so that they can still afford their daily needs.
I don't know a more Godly person that Davidson. He is loving and challenging and very well-educated about the bible. He's a talented preacher. Yes, he is aware of the passages that condemn homosexuality and he has studied them. He's also taken very much to heart the command to serve the "least of these." Before he became a Deacon, he was founding a program to work with women in jail and minister to them and record their voices reading children's books and getting those books and voice recordings into the hands of those women's children. That's the kind of thing he did for fun.
Davidson has really taken my oldest child under his wing. He has taught Patrick to be an acolyte and to help at our Family Service for folks with young children. An adult friend just told me about cleaning up after the Eucharist with my son. Patrick (age 9) reverently divided the leftover consecrated bread and said the prayers for pouring the leftover wine down the special sink (the piscina which runs straight to the ground). He was able to lead an adult through this because Davidson had taught him and prayed with him.
I know lots of clergy, straight and gay, but none lives out the Gospel more fully and actively than Davidson. I can't imagine how much poorer our Church community would be without him and his ministry. I love that my children know and love him. And I especially love that they live in a place where the gender of one's spouse is no more of an issue than any other.
That was longer than I planned, but I can't say any less and still tell you what is happening on this end of the banquet table.
Amen. Love is Never Ever Wrong!
ReplyDeleteI've read many of your posts and have been left breatheless. This one is no different.
ReplyDeleteAmen, my peacemaking friend! Definitely one to read and reread and pass on and share. Great, great writing!
ReplyDeleteG,
ReplyDeleteOkay, first of all, I think *I* need to make a t-shirt for Laura and I that says "I was mentioned on Momastery". I grinned the entire walk home from the gym this morning.
Secondly, I love you. I love you for loving my family and for loving folks who don't love my family. You are walking your talk and it makes me love you even more.
You were right- in general Laura and I are too busy keeping Simon alive and well to bother trying to convince Christians that they need to accept us and our Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender brothers and sisters. It's not energy well spent. Our goal is to live a life that demonstrates what love can do (which so far includes keeping a little boy alive when his chances didn't look so good). I have found that sometimes just living a good life can be more powerful than a big, finger-wagging lecture (though I may be sorely tempted).
This piece about peacemakers really spoke to me: "They find the light, the good, in each and every person. They don’t try to change people, except by example. They know everyone has something important to teach. They are humble about their ideas and their opinions. They try to find common ground, always."
It was in the spirit of changing minds by example and reaching out to find common ground that I wrote my "Letter to a Local Homophobe" (http://simonlev.blogspot.com/2010/05/letter-to-my-local-homophobe.html) to the local family that had the anti-gay marriage sticker. I tried really, really hard not to come from a place of anger but rather reach out my hand to this family that clearly did not like gay people. I didn't really think anything would happen, and it didn't with the family I wrote the letter to. But by showing ourselves as a family ruled by love, Laura and I I received the most amazing gift from another family. After spending a weekend us with us at a camp for kids with cardiac issues, a Christian Mom who had been against gay marriage actually changed her mind about the issue and was brave enough to tell us (http://simonlev.blogspot.com/2010/07/speechless.html).
Though I talk a big game about not giving a crap what Christians think of us, I cried when I found you after your first "A Mountain to Die On" post. You give me hope that we are not at war, or if we are, we have comrades who are going to knock 'em down with love.
Mad love to you and the Monkees
Jaime
"I guess I have just always accepted the fact that we are put on this Earth to love."
ReplyDeletePlease knock on Rev. Dr. Elizabeth P. Braxton's door over at Burke Presbyterian Church.
She confronts every uncomfortable issue head on and stands bravely in front of her congregation week after week, reminding us and that Christians are put in this world to love above all else.
She delivered a beautiful sermon on homosexuality, pulling from scripture. I printed it out and shared it much like I did G's first post on this subject. It is interesting to see exactly how many times homosexuality even gets a mention in the bible, especially when you compare it with how many times love and our call to love is mentioned.
It warms my soul to be surrounded by people brave enough to love.
Wow. Very deep. I like to place myself amongst the peacekeepers (to a fault). I am pro-choice and don't care if you are gay or straight. This former hoochie is loved by God and Jesus and only they know my heart and will decide my place. Let no one judge me unless they have walked in my shoes and been where I have been or what I have been through. Even then, I dare that someone to judge me or my family. I am very fiesty and HE or SHE loves that. Love to you Glennon. WONderful post. Rainbows forever!!!
ReplyDeleteGlennon, God gave you such a gift. There is something about your voice that allows people to become a little less locked-in to their beliefs, to soften around their hearts and minds enough to get a little wiggle-room and be able to consider an expanded perspective.
ReplyDeleteWhatever one's political/religious beliefs, I think there was something for everyone to take home from this essay. One such point for me is the flawed logic in judging the judgers. And I'll tell you something else - your posts have softened my locked-up heart to Christianity and Jesus. I now have a little wiggle-room to see that Christianity and Christians may not actually be the stereotyped view I rigidly held to. As I witness your personal example of living your life through that relationship, I begin to consider that there may be something to this Jesus business! Your blog is powerful enough that it is having an affect on my life's journey. Wow.
Anyhoo I, like so many others, am grateful for your gift and for your courage and commitment to use it in this format. What an extraordinary community has been created here.
Thank you for putting these thoughts into words... i couldn't agree more:) I loved every bit of it and want to share it with everyone I know... gay, straight, Christian, Athiest... and I want them to know that I love them all equally:)
ReplyDeleteAs a Lutheran Pastor and a father with a gay son, I thank you for your beautiful, powerful post. You are absolutely right on. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteI want to leave some sort of insightful comment but I see that has been covered. Wonderful, wonderful post, G. ... and wonderful Momastery commenters! Love it all and this place.
ReplyDeleteWell done. I loved your first mountain post. It's what got me hooked to this blog in the first place. This one is amazing too. One of the many things I love about your writing is your ability to convey your passion and feelings across the page and into my heart. Perhaps this is because I have similar beliefs as you, perhaps this is because you're just a great writer; I think it's the latter of the two mostly.
ReplyDeleteThe way you described celibacy here is so beautiful. I have never thought of it like that before... mostly because I haven't given it much thought. Need-less-to-say, I'm gonna use it.
~Amma
My feelings on this are one of the many reasons that the United Church of Christ is my "church home." ALL of my friends and family are not just welcomed to visit, but welcome to join as well...
ReplyDeleteWonderful post.
G!
ReplyDeleteThe world is way too small. I just got an e-mail from my life long bestie, Maia in Boston who said" you know that blog you love? Laura, Jamie and Simon are on it!" I have been connected through prayer an Maia to this family for a long time, and have cried and sighed for them more than once. Hey ladies...and Simon! Not actually surprised to find you here at all.
Glennon--you constantly affirm me and my choices, and I will front the cost for a momastery tee shirt if some designs it!
Meghan
I want a t-shirt and a bumper sticker too! And a hoodie!!! Anybody have a hoodie that they aren't wearing anymore I can buy? :)
ReplyDeleteG. lady, the first thing I thought was how well written this post is. I mean the content is out of this world, but the word crafting is some of the best you've ever done. In my opinion. :)
I needed a reminder to not judge and be a peacemaker this morning. I just don't know what to say anymore when I am constantly told by the white, upper-middle class Christians that I shouldn't be doing our adoption. I want to spit and then tell them that it's a little girl. Not a disease. It's hard not to judge the people who say these things to me. I am afraid that the next person who tells me I'm crazy, or asks my why we are still adopting her, or tells us that we will regret it, that we are asking for a life of suffering, or tells us that we are on our own, don't ask them for help, that I will weep. Getting judged is such a lonely place to be.
Love,
Tova
yes, yes, yes! Thank you so much for your post. I especially resonated, today, with what you wrote about celibacy - as someone recently divorced I am struggling with my 'singleness'. It is not what I would have chosen for myself, but it is who I am, for this season.
ReplyDeleteAnd, as a pastor, I wish I was in your community - would love to break bread and share a glass of wine!
peace,
deb
Tovie:
ReplyDeleteDon't forget. He said:
Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. REJOICE and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
You are the light of the world, Tovie...
And one more thing....
Consider it pure JOY, my sister, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Dude. You are totally getting PERSECUTED. You have graduated to LEVEL BAD ASS.
Love to you and JOY,
G
Glennon,
ReplyDeleteBeautiful. You have no idea how you are challenging me to think and grow and love. Love you and Thank you!
Xoxo Susie M.
G - beautiful. Save me a seat...
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, word for word, what I have had in my heart and haven't put on paper. Every, single, word. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
ReplyDeleteBeautiful comments.
ReplyDeleteLove.
ReplyDeleteLove, Love, Love this, Glennon!! Your honesty and compassion and gentleness give me such hope. Love God, love others, care for the poor and needy . . . Blessings on you, my sister!
ReplyDeleteI love Momastery for its wisdom, humor and honesty. I love Glennon for who she is and what she gives to all of us. I think this is similar for a lot of us. Now, for the "but", right? Not really a but per say because what I am about to say doesn't diminish what I just said above; "however", many may think it does.
ReplyDeleteI have a hard time with the posts regarding religion. Not because I struggle with what I believe but because I know what I believe and I of course want everyone else in the world to believe the same things yet I have a very bad tact at expressing this nicely to others. I just want to shout to some “why don’t you get it?”. That is not very Christian (by the way, I don’t like that term because Biblically it is to mean someone who is saved yet colloquially we use it to mean someone who believes that Jesus is God).
Anyway, one of my endearing/annoying qualilties is my ability to debate and share my opinions. It can be fun at times but I think it sets me off as a know-it-all or someone who has to say her 2 cents for everything. For those who do know me, I guess it's not all a bad character trait since friends and family still come to me for advice as I think I present the logical, realistic side to things, removing at times the emotional and even being able to the the devil's advocate as the saying goes.
Okay, so what does this have to do with today's post or religion? Well, I do have a loving, heartfelt relationship with Christ but in addition to that, for me I also have a much needed head-felt relationship with Christ and the Bible. I do believe the Bible is God's infallible word and I do not try to interpret it to fit my needs. It is my correction, my reproof for how to live my life even though I do wrong by it daily. The glorious thing of the Bible though, is this is where I know I have eternal life EVEN THOUGH I am a sinner. I am a sinner. A sinner redeemed and saved through the blood of Jesus Christ. Thank God for that because I could never do enough good in my life (salvation is NOT through works) to be worthy of the sacrifice the Lord did for me. That part of the relationship is emotional as believing on that is from pure faith. The logical side of all of that though, is the word of God was set down on earth so I can have a guidepost. I love a manual on how to do things. It makes my life easier.
All that being said, I can very simply say, God did say (through the Bible) homosexuality is a sin. It is there in black and white. But hey, so is divorce. So is swearing. So is lying. So is wanting the pretty new car the neighbor has. Why don’t we persecute people for these things? A sin is a sin is a sin. But we are not the judge of sin. God is. And WE ALL SIN (and come short of the glory of God). Again, I know this because the Bible tells me so just like the song Jesus loves me (because the Bible tells me so).
I think the big thing with homosexuality and always bringing it back to the religious side of it is people just can’t get past their idea of the immorality of it and there is such a stereotype to that kind of love and the behavior of people who practice homosexuality. I say, to each their own – everyone needs to make their own peace with themselves and God. I can think of many times when a lie would be a whole lot more immoral to my life. It’s all about perception but again, there is no designation of how bad each individual sin is in God’s eye. A murderer can get saved and go to heaven while someone who thinks the only sin they committed was lying about their age will die on that sin and go to hell.
If you get a chance, read this sermon on this very topic:
ReplyDeletehttp://burkepreschurch.org/sermonblog/?p=32
Here's an excerpt:
It could be because The Bible told them that Negroes were descendents of Ham, one of Noah’s sons who Noah pronounced a curse upon because he saw him naked. “the lowest of slaves shall he be to his brothers.” (Gen.9:25) Since black Africans are generally believed to be the descendents of Ham (See Genesis 10:6-20) The scripture was interpreted to mean that African slaves are a natural result of this curse. Slavery, an institution that allowed one human being to own another, was defended by religious institutions and preachers quoting from this story in Genesis and Joshua 9, Leviticus 25: 44-46, Colossians 3:22 to name a few. Christians did not stop to think whether the institution of slavery is , in itself immoral. Their chief concern was whether the Bible condoned of condemned it. The answer was obvious. Christians supported slavery. One religious body(Methodist Conference in SC) wrote:
The Holy Scriptures, so far from giving any countenance to [the] delusion [of abolitionism] do unequivocally authorize the relation of master and slave.
Lest you think this attitude was only in the South, listen to the
editor of the Princeton Journal who wrote:
The assumption that slave holding is in itself a crime… is an error fraught with evil consequences. It not merely bring its advocates into conflict with the scriptures, but…it embodies and divides the members of the community and it distracts the Christian Church.
Even 100 years after slavery was abolished, blacks were still considered inferior by many and not given equal rights based on the Bible. In 1861 our Presbyterian Church split – north and south over the issue and was not reunited until – yes, 1984!!"
The church is constantly evolving, just the way God intends it to. We grow in faith and in many other ways together.
adrianne, i'm loving all of the comments too!
ReplyDeleteLoved it! Am right there with you on every point including your good reminder to be a peacekeeper and to love EVERYone even the people who judge differently than I do.
ReplyDeleteAnd I am SO glad you included slacker moms in the Momastery table. Phew. :)
hmmm. hmmm. hmmm. Been thinking about this a lot. Even prayed about it, asking for the kind words, the right words, His words.
ReplyDeleteSo, here goes it. Guess what? I'm not even going to talk about homosexuality. Gently, I admit that wasn't even my takeaway in this post. I wasn't really able to hear that message because of the other messages I was hearing . I was reading, reading, okay, love thy neighbor, yes, yes, we are all in this together, yes, I agree wholeheartedly, yes... and then it was as though, "now, let us interrupt this program for a brief message from our sponsors." =
"Last week I was stuck at a stop light behind a Luxury SUV sporting a huge abortion bumper sticker with a picture of a baby that read, “It is a poverty that a child must die so that you can live how you wish.”- Mama T."
And for me... huh? what? How is this tying into this piece about love? Are we going to talk about God being pro-life?
But, that we were not. We were going to scold this woman for having an opinion while driving a nice car. Scold this woman for wanting to save unborn babies. Scold this woman because she didn't mention poverty and immigration and disease and the million other issues we humans face each and every day. This made me very, very sad. A, seemingly so, commonality that I have witnessed in recent years in our society is one of people not wanting to hear anything that they don't like.
What is the the purpose in mentioning the type of car? Weren't we talking about homosexuality? Weren't we talking about loving our neighbors? Why is she being villanized for driving a luxury SUV? So many questions started racing through my head, as I continued to read the remainder of the post and the ensuing comments. Comments calling the bumper sticker divisive, comments referring specifically to white, upper-middle class Christians. whoa. I would like to gently challenge all of us in this online community. What say you if that statement had been switched with a minority and lower income non-believers, or homosexuals or whomever? I believe that people would jump up. I believe people would be indignant. As, they should. I repeat, as, they should. JUST, as we all should be when those comments of generalizations and groupings are made towards white, middle-class Christians. Yet, generalize a white person and one that dare may be a middle class or a Christian and......tumbleweeds.
So, I continue, I am curious how this bumper sticker is divisive if we are saying that Mother Theresa's words are not divisive? That classification does not do it for me. It is a bumper sticker of her words. Is it divisive because some people have had abortions and that may upset them, make them squirm a bit? I say that with no pretense or judgement. I have dear friends who have gone through almost every imaginable female trial. I am genuinely asking. I think we can all agree that abortion is not an unambiguous moral question. So, is that the divide? That which makes us question? Isn't that what we are all supposed to do, up until the very end? Question. Ponder. Grow.
My real question to all of you is whether we, collectively, as a society are supposed to keep silent on anything that may have even the slightest possibility of offending or provoking (meaning simply thought provoking)? That is the message I am starting to hear time and time again; don't do anything that might offend someone..... Unless of course the offendees are white, not in poverty or Christian...
(continued)
ReplyDeleteSo often I hear from people in today's society. "Don't you dare judge me. My behavior, my beliefs, anything." Where is the line drawn? Believe you me, I am the strongest proponent of personal liberties, less regulation, etc. BUT, we live in a society, collectively. A society is one based on a shared value system; a degree of core beliefs. What if John Doe decided to kill his daughter because she shamed him? It is HIS family. HIS belief system. HIS situation. I'm sure he is saying, "How dare you judge me, as you have not walked in my shoes, you do not share my beliefs"......But, again, where is the line?
"being a Christian required me to love them, to ache for them, to fight for them with the same urgency I would have if I were fighting for myself." Strong words. Beautiful words. Insanely moving words. That they are. Really. Maybe this woman in her luxury SUV feels exactly the same about our unborn children. Being pro-life does not have to tie into the other 8 million human issues of the time. We all feel called to certain causes. Thank goodness for that. Because frankly there are too many darn things that need some help. We can fight for all of them. sure. But, our time and energy would be better spent focusing on certain causes and championing those till our hearts sing. Thank goodness for the SPCA devotees. Thank goodness for those fighting for the homeless. Thank goodness for those fighting for orphans and people with HIV. Thank goodness for those fighting for better healthcare and yes, my dear friends, thank goodness for those who feel the calling to fight for our unborn babies. Thank goodness for all of them.
Know what I see when I see someone in a luxury SUV? And, no, I do not drive a luxury SUV..For the past 3 years (only until last month when we bought a very old, used car at an auction), this family of 5 had one car, and survived, no, we thrived, on one paycheck that our government should be ashamed to give my husband for what he and our family do. whoa, talk about tangets. When I see a luxury car, truthfully, I think that's nice. I'd like that. Glad we live in a country where people can work to achieve that. And that is the truth. If that is your thing and you work your a$$ off to buy one, go for it. more power to you. And if simultaneously you happen to be morally opposed to abortion and you would like to express that belief in a peaceful manner in this country where thankfully we have freedom of speech, freedom to the pursuit of happiness and freedom to work as hard as we like for our personal druthers, well, then rock out in your luxury SUV and your quote from Mother Theresa. You have the right and I am thankful you do.
(continued)
ReplyDelete"Mama T earned the right to step in by constantly stepping up. But for the rest of us, some of whom are most comfortable addressing pro-life issues vehicularly . . . might we also discuss how many starving children our car payments could feed every month? Isn’t it also a poverty that children must starve so that we can drive what we wish? I just think that if we are going to call ourselves pro-life, we must also agree that starvation and poverty and disease and immigration and health care for all and war and peace and the environment are also pro-life issues. And that if we really care about making a difference and honoring God- given life, we might want to meet with the Man in the Mirror before calling anybody else out. And maybe in the meantime we could have a bumper sticker made that says: "We are all Confused Hypocrites. But God Loves Us anyway, which is Good News. So out of Gratitude, We are Trying to Remember That We Belong To Each Other." I'd buy that one. "
(continued)
ReplyDeleteHere, I would say countless things are poverties and griefs in this world. countless. Life is pain, as we have discussed in this fascinating and enlightening forum before. But being passionate about one issue or any specific issue does not take away your ability or choice to have any other pleasure or indulgence in life. The passion about a cause and the seeking of pleasure and enjoyment in our lives are not mutually exclusive. So, I disagree. Those are separate immigration issues, and environment and health care issues. Immigration issues are Immigration issues and pro-life issues are pro-life issues, and so forth. Yes, maybe some spill over onto each other (i.e. healthcare and abortion). But, still fundamentally they are different issues. So, I don't fully understand this logic. How dare that woman in that SUV be against abortion? The only people who can be against abortion are those who have nothing and have given all away to the impoverished? The Bible states how much we should tithe. The Bible states to love one another. Help the poor. Help the meek. Perhaps she is doing that and more. I would venture to say she believes she is doing those exact, aforementioned things in fighting for pro-life causes. Does someone who drives a nice car have any less valuable an opinion than someone who drives a less expensive car?
So, I hope that you will all take this in the nature in which it is intended; to provoke. not as in a fight, but as in thought; critical thinking. Not critical judgey judge. Critical as in examination. discovery.
In loving kindness,
Molly
DAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMN, GIRL!!!
ReplyDeleteLoved it, anonymous. Kind of want to make it a whole post.
I would also like to formally apologize to all fancy car owners, of which I am one. Sorry. I think I blew that one. Learning.
Thanks, Anon.
MOLLY!!! MOLLY!!!!
ReplyDeleteShould have known. Beautiful.
:) you never answered me whether or not you have read that book!
ReplyDeletei'm scared to. are you still talking to me?
ReplyDeletewe are doing it, though, aren't we?? we are disagreeing and then listening and rethinking and speaking kindly and listening some more and taking deep breaths and rethinking again and STILL LOVING EACH OTHER!!! I am happy.
also, should we make it a whole post?
ReplyDeleteof course I'm talking to you..or typing to you!! how else are we ever going to figure things out?!
ReplyDeleteyou may do whatever you likey with it. This is your show, mademoiselle. And it is a great one. But seriously, did you read the book? I need to discuss it. babies crying! ttfn!
no i haven't read it...send it my way please.
ReplyDeletegosh, i am a member of a church where hated of gays/homosexuals would never be something tolerated. There are plenty of churches who don't follow the bible literally and have open hearts to all man/womankind. I am wondering if you might feel more comfortable in a different church.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing... I DO think it's the Truth that there is enough on this Earth for everyone to live. But that some of us (me included FOR SURE) could choose to live with less so that others might have enough. and i think sometimes the unconscious decisions we make lead to this imbalance...and that Luxury for some ends up equaling Poverty for others.
ReplyDeleteBut I went about illustrating that wrong. Kay, that's all. Love.
G
I didn't get to the issue of homosexuality because I got stuck on idea that the Gospels have more weight than the rest of the Bible. Um...doesn't work that way. All Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking ... etc.
ReplyDeleteGlennon, you have a wonderful gift for writing. Just make sure that your readers are clear on the difference between this is what GLENNON thinks/believes vs. this is what GOD says in His Word.
You are a beautiful monkee, kind enough to share your life with all of us in a transparency that would make most of us squirm . . . but I hope that the monkees realize you're not our Savior and you're not responsible to interpret Scripture for us. Cheese n crackers -- if you read the Scriptures and understand the standard for teaching, you do NOT want to be responsible for that anyway!
Peace and Love,
I can't formulate a totally complete thought on the singling out the Lexus and the bumper sticker, but the thread I can pick up has something to do with identifying power and privilege.
ReplyDeleteTo create change, we have to figure out where the power lies, who has the power to make the changes we want to see, and who is making decisions that affect our well-being.
I don't think the snarky comments that I've made or thought about about rich people , or white conservatives, or "Bible-thumping Christians" is very productive or kind or good. But they ARE an indication that on some level, I'm identifying who I perceive has power, who I think is making decisions that affect my life and those around me. This is part of why these groups get a lot of lip time from people like me. They are an obvious target for our frustration about wanting change or not wanting people to make policy decisions that will benefit them and hurt me.
If I weren't such a jerk or more evolved or something, I'd spend no time pointing fingers at people I don't know and blaming them for the things I think are causing the problems in the world. But it's become an instinct for me, as a queer person and as a white upper middle class person struggling to be a good ally to people of color and poor people to try to sniff out who in the room has the power. Sometimes it's a random person minding their own business (like the lady in the Lexus) that makes my alarm bells go off. Sometimes it's actually a good target.
My more base instinct is to sneer at them once I think I've figured out who they are. I've flipped the bird at more than one anti-choice bumper sticker or bill board, stuck my tongue out at more than one "No on Prop 8" sign or sticker (but I don't do it if I think they're going to see me because I am terrified of conflict on some level). But if I'm going to take this whole Monkee business seriously, I guess I need to shut my yap and reach out my hand and see if we can have a dialogue. Because I think that's the only way things are going to change.
I guess my point is that on a personal level, it's not helpful to point fingers at random people (though I do it much more than I'd like to admit). However, identifying who holds the reins in this country (which I think I can safely say are overwhelmingly white, straight, Christian, wealthy people) is useful we we want to change things to be more egalitarian in the big picture.
So, G, I'm glad to see that you are human. I was starting to get a complex. :-)
Unrelated:
@Antiroll: I have to say that from my perspective, scriptures are documents written by humans (humans wrote all of the parts of the Bible- where the thoughts and words they wrote down came from are a matter of some debate for some of us) and interpreted by humans (every priest, preacher, rabbi, pastor picks and chooses what to emphasize to their congregation and what they think it means). I love hearing what parts touch Glennon. I can actually listen because she is so clear that this is *her* interpretation. And I have to say, she's the closest thing to a savior that I will have in my life and I welcome her interpretation of the Scriptures.
Jaime
I'm not a Savior, I just crush a lot.
ReplyDeleteLove,
G
G,
ReplyDeleteDefinition of a savior: A person who rescues another from harm, danger, or loss.
It sure looks like you are trying to do that for queer people by advocating on our behalf. :-D
Love.
ReplyDeleteI love this place.
ReplyDeleteI do want to say just one thing about scriptural understanding, because I think it's pretty important. Kind of one of those things upon which ones' entire relationship with God *can* lie. Which is kind of a Big Deal for those of us who want our lives to become more like what He wants of them. Right?
ReplyDeleteMy internal alarms always go off whenever people say, "The Bible was written by men, picked and chosen by men, and interpreted by men, so we have no basis or necessity to accept it as (pardon the expression) gospel truth. It's just a series of guidelines from which to determine the best way for us, individually, to live our lives." Now, if a person actually has understanding of true Jewish oral tradition, I can grant a bit of leeway, because, certainly, oral law does offer a bit of illumination of the scriptures that the written Word lacks.
Sure, I get that, absolutely.
But if you're talking about picking and choosing which parts of scripture to "obey" and which to reject as merely cultural reference, not meaningful to modern society, then, that's when I know that *I* need to step back, breathe deep, pray hard, and think critically, before saying one word more.
Because here's what I've picked up, from my limited understanding of a mere 16 years being a Christian (I'm still a "teenage" Christian, so bear with me, I do tend to get a little ahead of myself): If those who wrote the Bible were, indeed, inspired by God to write it by the same Holy Spirit that dwells in me, and if the same God who inspired the Word speaks to me when I speak to Him, what possible reason do I have to assume that He is going to tell me one thing while the written Word says another? I have to either: 1, reject His relationship with the human author as irrelevant or nonexistent (something I certainly have no right to do), or 2, assume that the Voice speaking to me is not God, or 3, that God changed His mind, making Him neither omnipotent or eternal or immaterial, and therefore not worthy of my worship and adoration.
So, either my relationship with God is false, or His relationship with His prophets and apostles was false, or God changes, or scripture is not God-breathed and worthy for instruction. If the first, I have no reason to feel secure in ANY of my understanding of scripture; if the second, I have no reason to feel secure in God's relationship with anybody else; if the third, I have no reason to worship God in the first place; and if the fourth, I have no reason to accept any of the "good" things about the Bible as true, much less the unpleasant ones. I have no reason to have faith in Jesus' resurrection, or the Holy Spirit's indwelling on Earth, or anything else upon which I can feel secure in my justification before God under the blood of Christ.
(Con't)
ReplyDeleteNow, please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that there are NO instances of cultural or denominational inference in the Bible. Paul's admonishment to the Corinthians, for instance, was clearly to deal with the Corinthian's specific situation at the time, and we lose the value of scripture if we completely ignore our responsibility to be "as shrewed as snakes" by not learning about the culture in which the scriptures were written. (Which is part of why I have such difficulty with homosexuality; the cultural inferences are ambiguous vis a vis the worship orgies of Tammuz/Dionysus, etc.) Yes, we do need to use our minds as well as our hearts; to hear the Holy Spirit, and to test Him against scripture as well as visa versa. Otherwise, how are we to know the nature of the Spirit or spirit, if even the Devil can appear as an angel of light?
Anyway. That may be a bit heady, so I'll stop for now, with just one more word. I've had the very good fortune of working with the pro-life movement for most of my life, both before and after becoming a Christian. I've worked with PLAGAL (the Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians), the Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League, Libertarians for Life, and several other "atypical" pro-life individuals, who all feel that Life should not be a partisan issue, but a self-apparent right for all human beings regardless of size, age, location or voting status. Yes, some of us disagree on the hows of achieving the goal of every individual being recognized as worthy of existence, value, love and protection. But the point is that we agree that those things are necessary to the very core of human dignity and rights, including those of the women who seek abortion; we are merely focusing on one form of injustice. Or, put it another way: How would you feel, Glennon, if someone told you that Sister does not REALLY care about women because she went to Rwanda, instead of going to China and fighting the one-child policy of forced abortions there?
Hmm. That's all I've got. (Lovin', is what I've got...) I know the Momastery isn't about debate and rhetoric, but I think it's important to be understood sometimes... even if we walk away completely unswayed. Ya ken?
Much Love,
Sharyn
"We are all Confused Hypocrites. But God Loves Us anyway, which is Good News. So out of Gratitude, We are Trying to Remember That We Belong To Each Other."
ReplyDeleteI want that bumper sticker. Or that T-shirt. You all are awesome. All these comments are so enlightening. If we were all sitting in a room together having this conversation, I would just sit there and listen in awe.
I have never read the Bible, nor will I most likely.
So I can't quote or discuss scripture or what have you with as much intelligence and knowledge as you ladies that know the Bible so well. I just know what is in my heart and what feels right. And I love this blog.
Rock on G!
Might want to check this out:
ReplyDeleteInteresting show will be on the OWN Network next Tues. at 10pm:
Our America with Lisa Ling
Pray the Gay Away?
Three things:
ReplyDelete1- I love how comfortably Jaime says "queer". Since I'm not (queer), I feel funny saying it. Somehow I find it refreshing coming from her. :)
2 - Chimmy, I'm going to try to find time to read that sermon. I find that looking at our history can help me see the present more clearly, especially when there are aspects of the present that I would rather ignore.
3 - Molly, I probably should have explained my "divisive" comment more clearly. I don't think that particular bumper sticker is divisive because it's pro life or because it's positioned on a fancy car; rather, it's divisive because it casts judgment on a group of people (however anonymous) in our society. It's a sound bite from Mother Teresa, and she wasn't a sound bite sort of lady. By taking that one line from Mama T's broader message, the bumper sticker doesn't take a stance on an issue as much as it damns the "them" who don't agree. To my thinking, creating an "us" and a "them" is always dangerous and obviously divisive. I would feel just as squirmy about a bumper sticker from a dog shelter that said, "I support my local dog shelter even though *some of you* still ignore the crisis and purchase ridiculous high-end dogs from breeders." That (fictional) bumper sticker doesn't support the shelter as much as it points a finger at those who don't. Which is counter productive in the grand scheme of trying to change the world with a bumper sticker. Which, in and of itself, is another conversation altogether.
Does that make sense?
Love,
MK
You folks are making me late for work!
ReplyDeleteGlennon…amazing post. I don't think I'll ever read the bible, and I LOVE your interpretations. They make sense to me and even helped me and my husband get back into church last year. I also got your point about the luxury SUV. I drive one, and by no means do I think I should give it up, but because of your post, I am thinking more about ways I can save to help save lives around me. And maybe we won't get a SUV that takes premium gas or needs the tires changed every year when our lease is up. You really challenge and intrigue my mushy stay-at-home mommy brain with each post. The comments do as well. I just can't get past the homosexual thing. I asked my pastor what his stance was on homosexuality and the church. His response was that they are welcome in the church but that we as Christians have to pray for them b/c according to the bible they are sinners. I joined the church but I was less than pleased with his answer. I mean, we are all children of God, right? Do we not say this is how God created or made me? I believe you are born a homosexual. I was born very near-sighted and my sister was born with a heart defect. Everybody has something. Why should gays suffer and live a life of celibacy b/c it's a sin in the bible? If it is a sin to have a partner of the same sex then to me it is NO more of a sin than telling a little white lie. I just can't believe this is what Jesus would want. This post provoked thoughts and emotions on so many levels. Thanks G.
ReplyDeleteI find that there's such a temptation to look at folks who disagree with me and assume they are either bad and deluded or just in need of a fuller explanation from someone like me. To think that the folks at the Westboro Baptist Church are using the same set of writings as I am is hard to believe. But I know that it's unlikely that I'm getting it all right either. I'm thankful for all the times Jesus is patient and even bemused-sounding when he explains and reexplains things to his disciples.
ReplyDeleteThe Left side of the church likes to point at conservative folks as too literal and missing the point of Jesus' ministry. The Right side looks at the liberal folks as not taking the Bible seriously. Both assumptions are unfair and wrong. I can only speak to the liberal part of the church, but I can promise that there are very well-educated, prayerful, thoughtful folks behind that less-literal side of the discussion. I'm willing to bet that there are folks with whom I deeply disagree who are also well-educated, prayerful and thoughtful. And on both sides there are folks who run their mouths in hurtful, unloving ways.
I preach a few times a year, which is wonderful, terrifying and very challenging. It takes a lot of time to sit with a set of texts and find what I hear God telling me in them. Last week I had the "turn the other cheek" Gospel. There were lots of prayerful, struggling hours with the laptop. I found folks of all backgrounds writing about how Jesus didn't really mean those words. That they still allow us to own guns or be shrewd in business or protect ourselves and our material interests. But the more I prayed about it, the more I felt sure that Jesus REALLY was saying we have to turn the other cheek, to give to all who ask, to love the unloveable. It doesn't fit well with our instincts but I think that's the point.
So, I will just keep plugging away at not being a jerk. And remain thankful that there are places for honest, loving conversation like this.
Can't stay away. Just one point. I said "S"avior. Only one of those. Jesus. You can ASK Glennon to be your savior or spokesperson or crush, but the capital S Savior refers to Jesus. The Messiah. The Son of God.
ReplyDeleteFor those who say they have never read the Bible and probably will not, you can get it on CD or through iTunes. It's worth it. But if you don't read it, then you're just relying on someone's view of what it says. Would you do that for any other important issue in your life? Just trust the realtor, teacher, doctor, politician, insurance salesman, etc. to think for you?
The best books in life are the ones that change you. The Bible can do that if you open it up and read it. If it's your first time, I recommend The Message version because it's really easy to access.
No matter how brilliant Glennon is (and she IS brilliant), it is unfair for anyone to lean on her in that way (interpreter of what God says), even if she's having one of her invincible days.
I do love this safe place and you monkees who think very differently from me. It makes me go back to my Savior in my prayer time and ask Him to search my heart for the ick, show it to me, and help me get rid of it, so there's only room for the love.
The cool thing - He answers prayer, and I love you all more and more BECAUSE you are different than me. He also show me how to pray for each of you.
Now who wouldn't want a Savior who can do that?
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ReplyDeleteGlennon, thank you so much for continuing to remind me to land as firmly as possible on the side of love, even when it doesn't mesh with others' interpretations. It's never my place to judge.
ReplyDeleteI read these two posts as I was headed to school to discuss our family's bullying issues and likely absorbed a much different message than most of your commentors. I very much appreciate the climate of respectful discourse you are fostering here. Yours is a safe place.
In a round-about and unrelated way, your post lead to a fantastic reuinion today with a friend I've missed very much. Thank you for such an unexpected expression of love.
iTunes is a great idea! Maybe I will read it after all. I typically rely on my pastor to interpret for me and as I said earlier, I love to hear Glennon's take on things too. Love the love here.
ReplyDeleteI know we're all supposed to get along here, but I just can't keep quiet on the Glennon-as-Savior thing.
ReplyDeleteI think reminding everyone that Glennon is the not the Messiah is a bit condescending to the members of this community. If you go back and read her posts and our comments on faith, you'll find that your warning was completely unnecessary.
When I read this blog, I am often in awe of Glennon's writing ability. I am amazed at how she can put on paper the things that are in her (and our) hearts. Many of us are in awe of her writing ability. But she (and we) recognize that it is a gift given to her by her Savior.
And one more thing...I don't know that I've ever read a more self-deprecating body of work than this blog. Glennon is the most humble person I have ever known. She doesn't have "invincible days." She has described herself over and over again as a former drunk, addict, bullemic, and liar. And she has repeatedly given every bit of glory in her life to Jesus.
Read this comment while you can, Monkees, because as soon as G seems me stirring the pot, she's going to get a God complex and delete it.
Adrianne,
ReplyDeleteWord.
-Jaime
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ReplyDeleteAm I the only one who wishes there was a "like" button on the comment section of this blog? I wish it all the time! Is there a way to add one?
ReplyDelete:)MK
Adrianne FTW.
ReplyDeleteI love you all. Every last stinkin', dirty one. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
Muah.
Much Love,
Sharyn
I am so saddened by this post. God's Word is very clear on this subject, and you are as loving as an oncologist who tells a cancer patient that they are fine. Homosexuality is no more sin than any other, but it still is sin... I pray that you love people enough to tell them the truth.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI have had the honor to work on a college campus for almost 20 years and have made it one of my missions to be a safe space for the gay students on my campus. These are just young people who need to be loved and accepted for who they are. I think it's really easy to debate these issues in words, but when living, breathing, amazing, kind, loving, scared, and trembling children (beacuse college students are in fact children...I'm just now realizing that), are in front of you, looking to you for acceptance and comfort, (some of whom's parents are forcing them into counseling to get them through their "gay phase") are we going to give them a lecture about what we believe, or are we going to hug them and cry with them and be scared with them and promise to be beside them?
ReplyDeleteI have not always believed this and I am ashamed to admit it. My college mentor was gay, only I didn't find out until just after I was graduated. I have never admitted this to anyone but her, but I made some horrifying, ignorant comments as a college student to her. I have since apologized to her, but never forgotten. I thought being gay was wrong and it was easy just to say the words...But then the situation came to me in the form of an amazing women who saved me more then once in college, from myself. She is why I do what I do. I love her..all of her. When the beliefs were put up against a living breathing person, they held no reality for me. It was a true revalation.
I love the bible and Jesus. I believe when I love people for the way God made them, I am doing God's work. Everyone of us has gay people in our lives, whether we or they know it or not. Can we make it our mission to not ever be hurtful to anyone? No matter what you believe, this could be your child someday. I tell myself everyday at work that this student in front of me, whether they have committed and atrocious act of bad judgment, or have lied, whether they are coming out or are just scared to be on their own; is somebody's Ryan or Ellie (my children), somebody's whole heart and world; their child; is in front of me.
What a privelege. All I have to do is ask myself, "how would I want someone to treat my child?" and then I know exactly what to do. I just try to love those kids a little harder....because after all, isn't that really all we can do? All we have in common? Just love each other a little harder, no matter what?
Kristin
Adrianne for President!!!
ReplyDeleteI've been biting my nails over the G as Savior thing wondering how a humble believer with a big brave heart and gracious soul gets mistaken for someone with a God complex?? Glennon is brave enough to share her journey with us. Her truth with us. Her love with us.
Ahem, there's a little diddy that goes somehting like
"This little light of mine,
I'm gonna let it shine
This little light of mine,
I'm gonna let it shine
This little light of mine,
I'm gonna let it shine
Let it shine,
Let it shine,
Let it shine."
Kristin... you are a superstar! No wonder you have been trusted to guide and help children at one of the most vulnerable and life-shaping times of their lives!
Sister - speak on it, girl! speak on it!
G - Shine on!
God Bless and Namaste, y'all
I've been trying to post this since 8:30 AM, so please forgive if you've already seen it!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, God's Word is "clear" on many subjects. How about this one from Leviticus: "No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord."
I'm quite sure I'm opening a can of worms here . . . and I should remind those of you who don't know me that I'm a Christian who goes regularly to church and thinks quite a lot about the Bible and what it means. I'm not trying to be ugly, I'm just trying to point out that I find parts of the Bible to be very unclear and confusing. Most of the book of Joshua completely stresses me out.
The disciples were RIGHT THERE and often misunderstood Jesus completely. So I'm okay with the fact that I often just don't get it. But I'm going to keep trying to understand, and try to do it with a loving heart.
:)MK
-PART 1-
ReplyDeleteMy heart is broken! I can’t do this anymore. I can’t sit here and watch as these people around me die in their sins. I can’t sleep and my eyes are full of tears…Then some of the people who claim to be “Christians” are denying the truth in the Word of God and spreading heresies and blasphemies that tickle their ears and lull them into a state of false security. They don’t know Christ but believe that they do…oh what a powerful and evil deception from the pit of Hell!!....
I know people who think that they have been saved who think that homosexuality is not a grievous sin in the eyes of God! They run around saying that God does not disapprove of it as if it isn't written plainly in scripture for them to see. What terrible times these are…But I shouldn’t be surprised because the scripture spoke of this...
Leviticus 18:22 “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”
Leviticus 20:13 “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them”
It is pretty plain that God detests homosexuality. It is sin, an abomination even before His eyes. Do you think that God is sitting up in Heaven saying “Ah you know, it used to be an abomination to me but hey, it is 2011, its no biggie now”? James 1:17 “(God)...with whom there is NO VARIATION or shifting shadow”, Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ(being God) is the SAME yesterday and today and forever”, Isaiah 40:8 “The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever”, Luke 21:33, Mathew 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words WILL NOT pass away”. I am pretty sure God does not change His mind on what is sin and what is not, especially the ones in the abomination category.
Some people will say, “Oh well when Jesus came it was different. He never condemned homosexuality as sin so its ok.” The only reason Jesus didn't waste His time talking about homosexuality being a sin in the eyes of God is because the people ALREADY knew that it was an abomination in His sight. It is why Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed in Genesis 18 and 19. If you don't believe me, check how the two Angels did not commit to destroying it until the men of the city tried to come out and have sex with them (Genesis 19:1-29).
Look at Lot in those same verses. See what happens when you hang around sin too long without renewing your mind? You become corrupted. You start thinking like the world. Lot was going to give up his virgin daughters to be raped by these evil men...see how his mind was twisted by the enemy!
CONTINUED...
-PART 3-
ReplyDeleteSin is not a joke. This is not just to deal with the sin of homosexuality, but to also deal with sins of lust and pride and whatever else you want to put into the blank. Some people who fool themselves into thinking that they are Christians will run around and have sexual relations outside of the context of marriage, refuse to repent before a HOLY GOD and then want to condemn Homosexuality as a sin. They are fools and don't understand that unless they repent, their own sin will land them in Hell.
Can you be a homosexual and be a Christian? No you cannot. It is the same answer to the question of whether or not you can run around having sex with people and be a Christian. No and No. 1st John 3:9 is very clear on this issue, “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.”
Stop playing games with His scripture trying to pick and choose what you will believe and what you will follow. Anyone who does that is not a Christian and only deceives themselves. Trust me, God is not going to be fooled. It is really simple, Jesus said in John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments”.
What are you trying to say? That we have to be perfect to get to heaven? No! Please do not get this twisted. If you have been born again, if you have truly been saved, you will obey Jesus' commandments as a lifestyle. It is AUTOMATIC because the Holy Spirit automatically brings about the image of Christ in those that are His. How do we know this? John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
Look at that, the fruit comes automatically from abiding in Him and apart from Him we can do nothing. What fruit? Galatians 5:22-23 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control...” Self-control means freedom from a life of sin.
Even right now, some of you reading this are thinking that I hate the homosexuals and I am here to tell you that you could not be farther from the truth. My heart is broken over them because they are living in sin and have been so deceived by the enemy that they believe that they were just born that way. The truth is that we are all born with sin and its ravages flow through our veins. However, to say that someone is born a homosexual is the same thing as to say that someone is born a thief or an adulterer. Do you forget that we do not war against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities and rulers of darkness(Ephesians 6:12)? Homosexuality is a demonic stronghold that is gaining significant ground in this day and age mainly due to people not calling sin as sin and not going to God through Jesus.
I know that I will lose friends for this post. People will delete me from their friends list and shun me for speaking the truth. But I would rather be hated by you all now and you hear the truth and possibly be saved than for me to be silent, you perish in your sins, and your blood to be found on my hands. I will not let my lack of obedience get in the way of you hearing the truth of the Word of God.
CONTINUED...
-PART 4-
ReplyDeleteI will leave you with this:
2nd Timothy 4:2-4 “preach the Word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.”
2nd Timothy 3:1-9 “But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all...”
p.s: You said that you heard this from God. I have to ask, do you think that God is so absent minded so as to contradict His own Word which He wrote? Please remember, 2nd Corinthians 11:14 says "..for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light". Satan knows the Word of God and he is always trying to twist it to deceive. Please don't fall into his trap...I'm begging you...
Part 2 of the above post isn't posting correctly please take a look at this link for the post in its' entirety. http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150200321851982&id=11803441
ReplyDeleteSorry about the order, something went wrong with the post
ReplyDelete-PART 2-
In like manner, did Jesus run around going through the ten commandments and explaining what was and what was not still sin? No, the ones that He did talk about, he talked about to expand on their misunderstandings to make sure that they were on the same page with Him, with God. For example, Matthew 5:28 “You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY', but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Some people have told me, well all that stuff about homosexuality is old testament and Jesus came to make a new covenant. That breaks my heart that people think that the Old Testament is there just for the “Vintage” factor. Without the Old Testament you cannot begin to understand what Jesus did for us on the cross. Some people think that Jesus came to change or get rid of the law. Jesus doesn't think that in fact He said in Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them”
CONTINUED...
CONTINUED...
ReplyDeleteVerse 27 is quite clear. Some people will go as far as to blaspheme and say that “well that part was written by Paul and not spoken by Jesus. They forget that 2nd Timothy 3:16 says “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.”
Romans 1:28-32 “and just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.”
CONTINUED...
CONTINUED...
ReplyDeletePerhaps the most direct New Testament dealing on this issue is found in Romans:
Romans 1:18-27 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to IMPURITY, so that their bodies would be DISHONORED among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever, Amen. For this reason God gave them over to DEGRADING passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.”
As a Christian, I have long-struggled with something I saw in the news several years ago. The news story was about a "Christian" group picketing homosexuality. The picture stuck in my mind is of this child (no more than 4 or 5 yrs old) holding a sign that said, "God Hates Fags". My heart dropped. If anyone claims to read the Word of God they would know that it says, "God LOVES everyone!". John 3:16 "God so loves the WORLD..." not God so loves a certain group of people. I was so upset that this "Christian" group was telling a CHILD to hold such an awful, slanderous sign.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your post. It was so encouraging to see someone voice the struggle with what the "world" says Christianity supports and what the Bible actually says. I may print this out and have a discussion with some Godly women I know and get their input as well. I think it would create a great discussion as I see it has done from your poster's reactions. Great job!
I tried to post a few days ago, but it was eaten by cyber space...
ReplyDeletebut after reading the posts again, I realized I had something else I wanted to say.
I heard Bishop Desmond Tutu speak in Oxford when I was in college. He spoke about the Bible and the importance of reading it. He spoke about being in jail, and how the bible was the only book he was allowed to read. He giggled (have anyone of you heard him speak? He has the most amazing giggle), in telling us that the guards were such fools because the bible is such a revolutionary text.
Someone asked a question later about the "wrath of God" sections in the bible, and the bishop giggled again and explained that the person had misunderstood him. He was not making the statement that the Bible was ONLY a revolutionary text, but that it was for him at I time when he spirit needed to be encouraged to rebel.
I wish I could quote him, but what he said was essentially this:
Go to the bible with your struggles, go and you will find what you need there. He called it a living text, meant to shine light into your life.
It was so beautiful that I cried, and I have read hundreds of versions of bibles (translations, books) since. I have FELT spoken to nearly every time (okay, not in the section of the list of begats and names).
What kills me is the notion that anyone who find solace, comfort, support and guidance in the Bible might speak about it in a way that would keep others from assuming they could do the same.
I love this post and the previous one, and I can't say I have really every struggled as G has with this topic. I hear that others have and I appreciate so much everyone's speaking on it.
To the anon poster above. Your passion is clear, and while I don't share it remotely, I hope you understand that while your knowledge and ability to quote scripture interesting, it does nothing to move me. I don't need the Bible to prove to me that Homosexuality is wrong. In fact it can't. I simply can't feel that way...despite the fact that I read the same book you do. I am not sure why you can and I can't, but I doubt it is because you read better than I do.
Much love monkees
Meghan
-PART 1-
ReplyDeleteMeghan, you do not understand the Word of God because you do not have the Holy Spirit because the truth is that you have not been redeemed. That is why you cannot understand what you read. The proof is found here:
1 Corinthians 2:14-15 "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments"
I am sorry but it is true. You, Jane who posted above you, and practically everyone else on here lack understanding of the Word of God and it is leading you to your deaths. I pray that you heed the words of God that you have seen written here because God is willing that none should perish.
Jane, you quoted John 3:16...well at least part of it. It is sad that you are unable to understand even this verse in context of scripture. Yes God loves the World but John 3:17 says, "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him MIGHT be saved." Yes not to condemn the World which is not to cast everyone into hell at that time. For God so loved the world that He sent Jesus so that we would have some way to be saved. The key word is MIGHT be saved. Only through repentance and faith in Christ alone can anyone be saved.
What all of you fail to realize is who God is and what the definition of Love is. First of all what is God? Most will say “God is love!!” This is true, it is one of God’s many attributes but it is not His essence. In essence, God is HOLY! That means transcendent perfection, without sin, without spot or blemish. Proof of that is found in Isaiah 6 in the first few verses. What do they angels cry? “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY”! They don’t sit there and say “Love, love love”. God is absolutely perfect. Thus He loves perfectly, but it also means that He must judge perfectly. No sin can even enter into His presence. So if anybody is in their sin when they die, they cannot enter into the presence of God.
Think about this, let’s say I came to your house in the middle of the night and proceed to kill your family and then steal all of your goods. I am caught by the cops and stand before the judge. All the evidence points to me. The judge then says, “You know what? Its cool Alec, no big deal, you do not have to pay for your crimes because I love you!” That judge would be absolutely corrupt. The law is the law. I broke it and must pay the consequence for it. The beautiful thing is that if we repent from our sins, Jesus already paid the price and we have the chance to spend eternity with Him. If not, we must pay the penalty for our sins. Everybody wants judgment until they are the ones being judged…
CONTINUED...
-PART 2-
ReplyDeleteNow to the definition of Love… Do you realize that you cannot love without hate? Because I love my wife, I hate infidelity. Because I love her, I hate guns and rape. To those of you who love your children, you hate drugs, you hate drunk driving, you hate rape etc etc. If you say that you love someone without hating the things that can hurt that person or your relationship with that person, you are a liar and deceive yourself. Now take that to the extreme. God is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT in love. Thus he HATES sin perfectly. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and death must be paid. Otherwise God ceases to be perfect. It is that simple. Sin is sin, we must call it what it is. Do you realize that your “feelings” on God’s Word don’t matter? This is not a democracy. It is His World, His rules, you belong to Him, infact, the very breath in your lungs belongs to Him and He can take it all away at any time. We do not get to tell Him what we want to believe. It doesn’t matter. If you choose to not follow His Word, that’s fine, in doing so, you also choose the consequence. That is the cold hard truth. If you choose to reject it, you will have to answer for your crimes on the day of
Judgment which is quickly approaching.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Or do you not know that WRONGDOERS will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
Alec:
ReplyDeleteMy favorite definition of faith from Websters:
firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
So, according to them you may have this faith thing a bit mixed up. Good luck and peace out, and respectfully you more than expressed your view. Its Glennon's blog, right?
Alec--
ReplyDeleteI actually feel reassured that you feel safe and welcomed enough here to speak as you do. That makes me feel like we're doing something right here. Because if you felt excluded or in any way disrespected or disregarded, I can only think that you would just leave, rather than actually engage.
Alec, I don't know how you found this site. Or if you've been around for a while. This isn't a strictly Christian site. Or a Muslim or Sikh or Hindu or Jewish or Jain or Atheist or Agnostic site. This is a people site, run by a person who loves her God and her Truth and who is desperately trying to learn how to love others, regardless of whether they accept her Truth or not. The people who come here feel the same way and want the same things. (Read it here: http://momastery.blogspot.com/2009/11/redemption-song.html) (G -- feel free to call me out if I'm wrong, here.)
If there's one thing I've learned, it's that no body can be *argued* into accepting someone else's beliefs. You can certainly reason with people. You can speak kindly and gently and humbly with them and hope you're heard. But ultimately, people hear your love louder than your words. It's always stuck out to me that the individuals Christ *argued* the scriptures with were the ones who ultimately called for His death; the ones he was gentle and humble and kind with were the ones who dropped everything to follow Him.
Alec, I hope you'll stick around. Because I think this is the place for you, just as much as for anyone else. But if you're hoping to argue anyone into anything... I think you'll just get frustrated. And I don't want that to happen, because I think we all have something to learn from everybody God puts in our paths.
Be well, Brother.
Much Love,
-Sharyn
I love this place. Love, love, love it!
ReplyDelete:)MK
SHARYN FOR PRESIDENT!!
ReplyDeleteSharyn:
ReplyDeleteThank you. Just from me. But a big loud, thank you. I want to be you when I grow up.
Meghan
I have spent the last 24 hours wanting to say something. Wanting to speak as a Monkee who takes Jesus and the Bible seriously and still agrees fully that God's call is to inclusive love. I kept formulating biblical arguments, but reading Sharyn's words moves me. We aren't here to argue. We're also not here to be morally squishy. Glennon's writings inspire and touch because they are healing and loving and challenging.
ReplyDeleteI don't think this is an either/or situation. I think it's both/and. Glennon is making a feast (in words, not food-- 'cause that is NOT how she rolls) and, there is room for everyone at this table. It's not how I'm used to engaging these issues-- and I am thankful to be doing this differently. This is a different path and it is a way that takes us through a wasteland of arguments to a more growing, fertile land. And instead of wracking my brain for the perfect point to convince everyone, I offer this from Isaiah 43:
18 “Forget the former things;
do not dwell on the past.
19 See, I am doing a new thing!
Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?
I am making a way in the wilderness
and streams in the wasteland.
20 The wild animals honor me,
the jackals and the owls,
because I provide water in the wilderness
and streams in the wasteland,
to give drink to my people, my chosen,
21 the people I formed for myself
that they may proclaim my praise.
vrwfox --
ReplyDelete"Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are." (1Cor 1:26-28)
Kind of reminds me of that Matt Redman song, "I will dance, I will sing, to be mad for my King, nothing Lord is hindering the passion in my soul -- and I'll become even more undignified than this."
Three cheers for undignified Love!
Much Love,
-Sharyn
OMIGOODGOODGRACIOUS.
ReplyDeleteG, everybody. I just read this, like, ten seconds ago. YOU MUST READ IT.
http://www.philosophy-religion.org/handouts/homophobic.htm
My heart is fist-pumping right now. Seriously.
Love you all!
-Sharyn
This is hard dialogue and I am LOVING it. I love that folks are letting all their stuff hang out and people are getting each others backs when it gets sharp and everyone is behaving. I wouldn't believe it was possible if I weren't seeing it happen in front of my eyes.
ReplyDeleteThe thing I keep coming back to is that I'm really okay with people not liking me, not liking my family, thinking gay people are bad. I'm okay with Anonymous and Alec and other folks who are really upset about this issue and calling me a sinner and saying my wife and I and people we (and Glennon) love, are maybe going to hell for it.
I'm not out to change anyone's mind about how they FEEL about gay people. Feelings are great and everyone gets to have them.
What I do care about is what people DO with those feelings. I care when people adopt policies that hurt gay people based on these feelings. Gay people actually aren't hurting anyone else by loving each other. Glennon isn't ACTUALLY hurting anyone by loving us.
Some folks clearly think we're hurting ourselves spiritually and will have to answer to God when we die. We won't know until it's time, but the way I see it, that's really our problem, not theirs. I can guarantee you every single gay person in this country has heard about Jesus. Some of us are interested, and many of us are not. Spreading the word has been done quite adequately in this country and throwing the Bible at us is not likely to help us come into the fold. For those who cite the Bible to convince us (queer people and allies) that we're on the wrong path, consider your job done and realize that may of us are exercising our agency and free will. I appreciate your intention. I honestly do. I get that you think you are trying to help us somehow. Know that we know how you feel and know what you would like us to to and know that we are going to take our chances and live the best life we can live, filled with love and connection.
I say feel your feelings, believe what you believe but when it comes time to pull the lever in the voting booth on a policy or elect someone, think about what you're really voting for. Are you voting to actively hurt a particular group of people, or are you voting as a responsible member of society who wants to honor emotional/theoretical disagreement and create a society where people can live the best lives they can live?
-Jaime
Peter Gomes, who wrote the essay that Sharyn linked, just died in the last week or so. He has been a very important voice in the Episcopal church for years.
ReplyDeleteYay, everyone. Just, yay.
ReplyDeletewe can do hard things.
Desmond Tutu preached at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco yesterday. I wish I could have been there, but this article seems to capture him well.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fc%2Fa%2F2011%2F03%2F07%2FBA0N1I52VF.DTL
I wanted to say Alec was right in what he was saying regarding homosexuality is a sin but he is incorrect on saying that you cannot be a homosexual and a "Christian".
ReplyDeleteLet me go back to how I commented on a sin is a sin is a sin. We all sin. God does not put homosexuality as any worse sin than murder or lying or lust, etc. BUT, if you become a Christian by the true definition of that (by the way, the term Christian is only mentioned twice in the bible) which means you called on the name of the Lord and asked for forgiveness of your sins and asked Jesus to save you (check out Romans 10), then you have salvation in the Lord's eyes and He will take you to heaven. No matter what. No matter how many more times you sin (which by the way, will be daily as we cannot even get past the first commandment). Now, just cuz you have this pass into heaven and all your sins are forgiven does not give you license to sin. God will rebuke you for any sin but you will still have a home with Him.
Anyhow, why do we worry so much about this sin? We need to look at our own selves first and realize the time spent persecuting others should go towards our own closer walk with God.
I am an atheiest. Really. I am absolutely convinced that this god stuff is man made and most of the time - harmful. I've even considered it child abuse. You're one of the exceptions. You are the Christ-like Christian that Ghandi would have liked. I wish there were more like you, then this belief in a son of god would actually do more good than harm. Teach your children well and thanks for writing.
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ReplyDeleteGlennon. In this one, you're inside my head, as so many others have said. You gave me gut busting laughs and tears in the same post. Thank you thank you thank you for writing. I need your voice to make sense of the mess of thoughts running around inside me. What a magical moment when those lonesome, messy thoughts in my head meet clarity in your writing, like a puzzle that gets its final, missing piece.
ReplyDeleteI have sent COUNTLESS posts of yours to friends since discovering your blog. Also, I got up the nerve to speak about becoming a new mom in my church. I was SO NERVOUS, but you had helped me tell the truth through your writing, like your muse visited me. What a scary and exciting thing to have words to say.
May I also say... these past weeks must have been so crazy for you. I have thought of you often. I am cheering for you and sending prayers of peace to you and your family as you navigate the effects of being totally awesome (am I right?) ;) Please get some rest somehow. This is important work you do.
Much love and carry on, warrior.
PS - I'm at this old post because I was searching through the archives to find one of my favorites to send to a friend (I use your blog like Google) and discovered this gem.
love this blog and wish I could have commented in real time.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, this christian obsession with homosexuality is strange to me. Jesus is very clear about certain things in my opinion and homosexuality is not top on his list of things to worry about. Instead he talks a lot about wealth, and the problems with it. I find this interesting because Christians do not seem so worried about the rich people and how they won't get into heaven:
Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'"
-Matthew 19:23-24
This seems very clear to me. We gotta worry about those rich kids, not the gay ones. And I think you have it right Glennon, we need to worry about that woman in her SUV, because she may not make it to the promised land with that car.
Also:
"Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"
again very clear.
So unless you have given away most/all(?) of your things, you are living some interpretation of the bible. And if that's the case, you can't take the stuff on homosexuality so literally.
I think this is what you were getting at Glennon with that SUV comment.