This blog, it’s sort of a living thing.
I never really decide what I want to write about. Ideas come to me instead of from me. Some story or subject taps me on the shoulder and doesn’t stop tapping until I write about it. Being a writer is like being a parent, actually. It’s like being pecked to death by merciless chickens.
Every once in a while I get post requests from readers. They usually say: Jeeeeesh Glennon- you’ve been pretty heavy lately…can we have some funny? Or Pleeease Glennon - I need some God stuff. And I know how they feel. But I don’t choose what to write about any more than I choose my kids’ moods. Something needs to get written so I sit down and get it done so I can relax already. And I just figure that some Monkee, somewhere, needed to read it. No matter how odd it was. And that’s how this little blog here runs. I just trust the system. So far, so good.
But there is one subject that has been tapping me on the shoulder for a long while now. I’ve ignored it out of fear - it’s a tricky subject - so it started pinching me instead. Yesterday it slapped me right across the face so I said ALL RIGHT. Tomorrow morning. I’ll write.
Sisterhood is important to me- you may have noticed. I believe…I know, that we are all more alike than different. That we are all connected. That one woman’s pain is our collective pain and one’s woman’s joy and success belongs to all of us. In short, I believe that We Belong To Each Other. And no matter how many episodes of Housewives Of Whatever I ogle at, I know that stuff is not True. I know the Truth is taking care of each other. Lightening each other’s loads. Recognizing ourselves in each other. Accepting and forgiving each other’s faults and weaknesses. Noticing strengths and celebrating them instead of being afraid of them. Trying our very, very hardest not to hurt each other. Loving each other. It’s hard, but it’s right.
Twenty one.
I have listened; either virtually or in real life, to twenty one sisters explain that their lives and hearts and families are shattered because their husbands had an affair with another woman. Included in these twenty-one have been women I’ve known for decades and women I’ve never met. But the pain is the same...it’s absolutely brutal. It’s indescribable. It’s impossible. It’s hell on earth.
And it always, always rocks me to my core. Because some pain on Earth is unavoidable, but this pain isn’t. Because I believe in marriage, and I believe in sisterhood. And I just can’t imagine being betrayed by both. Doesn’t leave a sister a whole lot to hang on to.
It’s a complicated issue. I choose not to discuss the husband’s role, because I’m not a husband.
I am a wife, and I am a Sister. And I just want to say this to my other sisters. I’d like to make this promise:
I believe in marriage, and I believe in sisterhood. And I will never, ever betray my belief in either one by becoming intimate - physically or emotionally - with another sister’s husband. I’d rather die.
If you have in the past, we forgive you. If you are right now, we forgive you. Just cut it out. Please. It hurts all of us. No matter what you are telling yourself, no matter what excuses you are offering yourself – the Truth is that you deserve better. We all do.
We Belong To Each Other.
Love You, sisters.
It is the fear that shall remain nameless. We all fear that it will happen to us, but if we all resolve not to do it to each other than it won't happen, right? I'm with you, I vow to never be emotionally or physically intimate with any husband (or man) other than my own.
ReplyDeleteIt is so true. Now that I am happily married I think about some bad choices I made when I was younger, less concerned about other women. Now I'm ashamed of the behavior. I don't beat myself up, but use it as a lightning rod to remember to "do better." It is kinda like when mothers bring down other mothers for breastfeeding or not, working or not, spanking or not.....you are so right. At a minimum we have a responsibility to NOT judge and hopefully support choices even if we don't understand them. Another great "thinking" column. Love you.
ReplyDelete"I did what I could. When I knew better, I did better." - Maya Angelou....via Miss Molly
ReplyDeleteWhat a wonderful post. I love this, and I shared the link on my Facebook page.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Glennon. I found that it helped me to pray for my ex-husband's mistress because I knew she must have been very desperate to believe the old story of "My wife's a bitch and I'm leaving her soon."
ReplyDeleteThere's a little bit of healing superiority in that, too, but in the last 8 years it has softened mostly to pity and then forgiveness.
Still, I join you in your vow. I promise to never betray the Sisterhood with another woman's spouse.
Woah. Big one. Important one. Delicately and with precision.
ReplyDeleteI, too, have a vow not to mess with another woman's man. I've witnessed the aftermath for friends and it never turns out well for anyone. It's just not worth it.
Husband and I have always promised each other that if we were going to cheat, we would do the other the honor of ending our relationship first. No secrets!
So far, so good. :)
I also vow never, ever, ever, to mess with anyone's spouse. Ever. I value my husband's heart and the bond of women too much to jeopardize it.
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting this Glennon.
Tricia
Never ever ever never EVER will I sleep with another woman's husband.
ReplyDeleteG,
ReplyDeleteI was "the other woman" in my early 20's and it still sort of haunts me.
I remember a friend calling me out, telling me that it was very NOT feminist to sleep with another woman's partner behind their back. I was mildly annoyed with her and in my young arrogance thought she was just being prissy. I mean, the person WAS going to break up with their partner, it was just a technicality that they were still together. And I wasn't *really* taking anything away from the woman because I didn't want a full time thing with my paramour anyway. And, and, and. All sorts of ways I rationalized it being okay.
My lover eventually did leave the girlfriend but we were both such a mess (hi, we were sneaking around having an affair which probably indicates that we had some ISSUES) that we never got together in a real relationship. I still think of that as the biggest train wreck I ever dodged. And I swore that I would never do it again. If I was going to do some emotional-intimacy-avoidant-quasi-relationship, I was going to do it with a single person, by golly. And I never did it again.
Now I really get that my friend had a point. Beyond being not very feminist, it wasn't very HUMANIST. Like, it's a crappy thing to do to anyone. And messy. I've since run into the girlfriend and I always get a little adrenaline rush and wonder if she knows and just feel awkward and bad about it.
The cheating thing. It's just a bad idea all around. Not gonna cheat, not gonna be the other woman.
Thanks for bringing this topic up...
-Jaime, a reformed "other woman".
HAH! And my security code for my last post was "curedu". It sure did!
ReplyDeleteVery interesting post and very interesting replies. PrincessMax I am impressed that you are able to pray for a woman that would do this to another woman and to your family. You are a bigger person than I am, after 3 years I have not made it quite that far. We spent more than a year in therapy and counseling 2x a week with lots of tears and self-examination on both sides and I am proud to say that we did learn from this experience, as painful as it has been. We are still together, we are better parents and better partners and we have started to come out the other side of the whole thing. I have gone from honestly considering having her killed (not as hard to accomplish as you may think) to not thinking about it every day or even every week, which is a big step. Obviously this post struck a chord, a taut chord some days.
ReplyDeleteThe person that I respected the most when this happened was the co-worker of theirs that found out and simply said “I will never speak to either of you again. What you are doing is terrible, disrespectful and ugly”. She didn’t and she was the only one to call them out and make him realize what a problem he had caused. I wish more people were as brave as she was to take her stand against it. I appreciate hearing other women vowing to never do such a thing and am interested to hear of women that have matured and started to understand how ugly and deplorable such behavior is.
To say that the pain is “absolutely brutal. It’s indescribable. It’s impossible. It’s hell on earth” is an understatement, such an understatement…
I pray every day for the strength to find a silver lining in what happened, to learn from it, to grow as I learn to forgive, and I have had to learn to forgive in ways I never imagined. I like this post because while it strikes a taut chord, it helps me to remember to work on not only forgiving, but not judging. Thank you for that Glennon.
Anybody who would break up a family is just a big old smelly turd and I would never, could never forgive anybody who did this to me.
ReplyDeleteThanks for this post.
I'm sorry that some people think that having hormones is an excuse for causing such pain in another person's life.
For the record, I think that **** blocking one's husband is also terribly wrong. Not every affair is a result of being **** blocked, but some are. This will anger some women to hear me say it, but just don't think you can deprive your husband of a basic need and expect him to put up with it indefinitely.
Amy, as Glennon said this is a complicated issue and she wasn't going to address the Husband's perspective. This is about Sisters taking a stand to not be "the other woman" regardless.
ReplyDeleteOn a purely personal note, I understand that there are **** in place of the word you choose to use, but I would prefer to not have that language here. There are so many other ways to get the message across without being so crude. I am far from being a prude, but I do think it diminishes the message when we resort to words like that.
marly c...you said what I was thinking.
ReplyDeleteHeather,
ReplyDeleteGlennon said she wasn't going to address the husband's perspective. I did.
I take that stand not to be the other woman and I don't think it's forgivable.
Sorry to have burst your bubble with my use of asterisks. Sometimes I forget how upset other people get when they hear (or read) language (or when they see an asterisk that makes them think or language) that is not to their liking. I hope your day gets better.
At least I'm not a BYU student. That **** can get you fired. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705369189/Was-BYU-student-fired-from-campus-job-for-swearing.html
Amy, your comment had little to no impact on my day. Its just that in the year or so I've been reading this blog, the Monkees have relished the community we have created that is based on love and respect. My comment was just meant as a gentle reminder that **** or **** are not respectful to the community as a whole. You are entitled to speak how you choose, but its a sign of respect and maturity to respect those who will be listening/ reading.
ReplyDeleteI’ve been thinking about it since last night, and I need to lovingly disagree with Amy’s suggestion that withholding sex excuses a partner’s unfaithfulness.
ReplyDeleteI understand that often in marriage, a couple’s mutual sex life, spiritual life, intellectual life, or domestic life falls short of one or both partners expectations. In this case, the right thing to do is to turn inward instead of outward. To discuss the problem, seek professional help, forsake all others until the problem is either solved or one or both partners decide that the problem is irreconcilable. In the case of irreconcilable differences, I suppose there should be a divorce.
After the divorce, both partners are free to pursue emotional or physical relationships with another. And not until then.
Unfaithfulness is the fault of the person who did the cheating, never the one left behind. Because there are problems in every marriage, but cheating is the wrong way to go about bringing those problems to light. There are truer, kinder, braver ways that will leave fewer scars and broken hearts.
When your ship starts to sink, you bail like hell. You don’t hop into another ship while yours sinks and your family goes down with it.
It's funny. I've always felt this way. I wouldn't ever even mess with a sister's ex or a sister's intended. I have a pretty strong non-competitive streak when it comes to romantic entanglements, and I don't understand women who are willing to do that. Love isn't a sport. And it's really bad karma to allow yourself to be the instrument of someone else's pain.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I also get frustrated when women blame solely the "other woman" for their man's infidelity. That, to me, is a major throwback to punishing a woman's sexuality while ignoring or forgiving a man's. If a man makes a promise to someone and then breaks it, it is his fault and his fault alone. The person with whom he breaks that promise is an accomplice perhaps (though not all "other women" or "other men" know that that is what they are) but the true perpetrator is the cheater.
And Glennon, while I think you're right, in one sense, to only speak from your perspective, I will say that men get cheated on too, and it's just as heartbreaking for them, but again, we don't treat it the same way. Men will always vilify the woman that cheated on them and NOT the man! How interesting. Again, it's that really out-dated sexual double-standard. We should all be very careful of that. Women can cheat too, and do.
I agree with Glennon that the biggest thing that would head off infidelity is not to treat it like the elephant in the room, the fear that dare not speak its name, but to rather talk openly about it.
My partner and I have discussed and accepted the fact that just because we have committed to each other does not mean we are dead or blind. We are still capable of being attracted to other people. Loving each other does not magically make those urges disappear forever, and it's foolish to think that. You're setting yourself up for a time when you hit a really rocky patch, and suddenly everyone is looking more attractive than your partner. But that's not a reason to cheat.
And finding someone else attractive does not dilute your love for the person you're committed to. Not talking about it and pretending that it isn't happening might put you in danger.
Glennon - I just love your post. I came across this quote (not sure who wrote it), but it made me think of you/us Monkees -
ReplyDelete"Sisterhood is the essence of all the wisdom of the ages, distilled into a single word. You cannot see sisterhood, neither can you hear it nor taste it. You can feel it and that feeling never goes away."
Actually, I never said that being "cut off" was an excuse to stray. I said that cutting somebody off (for an extended period of time or indefinitely) is "terribly wrong".
ReplyDeleteI'm really not sure how you interpreted that I said it was an excuse.
It's not an excuse, yet I wonder at the amount of women who cut their husbands off and then expect them to just be okay with it.
But I never said it was an excuse and I'm going to have to lovingly disagree with being misquoted.
I have never been the other woman and I would never be the other woman. I have never had it done to me (so far as I know) and I would never forgive it. I also have never cut my husband off because "Oh, I guess just don't much feel like it". I know a lot of women who have. Withholding affection is just okay to them because they don't feel like it.
I'm frankly blown away that my observation that it's an unkind thing to cut your husband off for an extended period of time or to make him practically beg for it. Maybe the fact that so many women find my observation offensive is part of the problem. We expect our men to hover around our emotions (for example, expecting them to treat us like royalty by making a birthday a three ringed circus) yet so many of us are dismissive to what THEY really need because we don't particularly feel like it.
Glennon, I'm in no way saying that you're guilty of this.
I'm just saying that a lot of women expect to have all their needs met while refusing to meet their husbands' needs.
I think it's something to think about. Or not.
I'm also sorry I used the term... you know. I happen to think it's funny but I sometimes forget that not everybody has the same sense of humor I do.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I fully recognize that not all affairs are a result of this.
As Glennon said, it's complicated.
I'm very happy to vow to never be a part of this kind of tragedy as either a married woman or a single woman.
Thanks, Amy.
ReplyDeleteSending a whole bunch of love your way.
Love, G
One more thing...just got a text from Hubdog which said...
ReplyDelete"Just met a Monkee at the mall! It was awesome! But then she tried to make out with me. Awkward."
Love that guy.
I do agree that withholding affection (respect, love, attention, etc.) is harmful to a marriage (partnership, union, etc.) and could drive anyone to look to leave the marriage. But, it should be a warning sign and a call for counseling and introspection, not cheating.
ReplyDeleteIn any event, we can only control ourselves and not others. So, if we vow to take care of our own relationships and to never become a third-party in someone else's, we've done the best we can.
(And, thank you, Amy! Lots of love!)
Glennon, Craig has a great sense of humor!!!LOVE IT!
ReplyDeleteHello monkee lovies...
ReplyDeleteOkay, so Craig cracks me up...have to lead with that.
Here is what I want to say...I appreciate G's interest in this topic, and what it has brought up for people. I can't say it really pulled me in, I work with a lot of infidelity and my experience is that it is always very, specific in terms of how it happened and what it means for the couple. I have never found it to distill down to anything simple (like just an issue of sex, or money, or religion). And personally, I couldn't do it. I can't do deception, I literally break out in hives.
Anyhow, the other thing that makes me smile is that G is just asking us to commit to each other not to do it (and I think maybe also not to collude in it). I like the intent. You are not asking us to uphold our vows, or respect others's vows as much as you are asking us to commit to each other.
So I can do that...though I gotta say, my first commitment is to my utterly stellar hubby, so that makes this second one a no brainer, actually.
Hee hee.
Meghan
Well. You know I'm going through my own "stuff," but, one thing I wanted to say -- as wrong as it is to hurt a sister in such a deeply personal way as to have an affair with her husband, can we also agree that it's wrong to judge, verbally assault, exclude, and damn those who do? Can we agree that "there but for the grace of God" go any one of us?
ReplyDeleteThat we're all people who have all made mistakes and hurt others and are all trying to learn how to live better, doing the best we know how?
That a cheating sister is still a sister, who has done bad not because she is bad, but because she is good and deserves better from herself, and deserves the rewards of right conduct?
That cliches are usually defense mechanisms against feeling pity towards those who wrong us?
And that we ALL -- good, bad and ugly -- belong to each other, warts and smiles and tears and all?
Much Love,
--Sharyn
YES Sharyn! I can agree with that.
ReplyDeleteYes Ma'am.
As someone who has been hurt by the actions of a "sister", this post has haunted me for days. I'm almost 3 months into learning about the one-time infidelity, and sometimes I feel like I'm doing great. Other times I feel shaken to the core. Glennon is correct - the pain of this betrayal is beyond comprehensible. I have wondered out loud both how my husband could do this to me and also how could this woman do this to another woman - especially after meeting both me and my little girls. I have also wished this pain upon her when she is married - not very nice, but while I'm going through this I don't always feel like being nice. Maybe then she will understand the impact of her actions. I'm not saying my husband is innocent in all this - he certainly is not. Our marriage was not great at the time, but I appreciate G's comment that a marriage with issues doesn't give someone license to stray. I think that is what I'm struggling with now.
ReplyDeleteG - thank you for the support you have given me throughout all this (i'm one of the 21). It is such a complicated issue - and we all work through it in different ways. It is good to know we have sisters to support and love us.
- KD
I didn't like when it was done to me, so I join you in your vow to never do it to anyone else. My mama always said "What do you get when you sleep with a married man? A man that will cheat"
ReplyDeleteI sort of have to disagree with Amy as well and please don't feel like we are ganging up on you because I don't mean it to be that way but I don't like sex right now and out of guilt just had sex with my husband after 3 months of not doing it.
ReplyDeleteI have my own issues and he knows about them and I'm working on them. Does it suck for him; it sure as hell does but he's not going to stray because of it. I don't think sex in a marriage is "that" important that it "should" make them stray.
There are so many other ways to be intimate with your partner. I seriously could just sit down and watch a movie with him at night (if I could stay awake that long) and he would be super happy.
I think also it needs to be said, I will never ever sleep with another sisters husband or another sisters boyfriend or another man (or woman :-)) for that matter, period!
"What do you get when you sleep with a married man? A man that will cheat"
ReplyDeleteright on GEEK. our mothers would so get along.
i never have. and i never will. ever.
this topic has so many layers, as evidenced by the dialogue that has followed here in the comments.
i'm not sure this discussion can happen without both perspectives. that's part of our shared problem. both sexes sort of fill in the blanks for the other, take guesses and avoid real talk.
if we are all in agreement, craig's joke can count as a first guest post from the husband's perspective, yes? well, at least it had me in stitches. and i needed that as this is a heavy topic with a lot of emotional landmines for many readers, i'm sure.
oh and amy and heather m for president!
interestingly enough, it does not surprise me that withholding affection was one of the first layers addressed... i've always found that women are very quick to list down all of "their faults" and "take the blame" when relationships falter or fail.
i think that women have been conditioned to shoulder the burden of not making a relationship work. that is supposed to be our department. we get bombarded with so many messages - be the lady in the street, be the freak in the bedroom, why did he stray? cook better? whatever... again... i think we need to bring men into the conversation and break this antiquated pattern of thinking.
we are all in this together, because we all belong to each other. i'm vowing to my sisters that it won't happen with me and i'm vowing to my brothers too. i'm totally fabulous, but you aren't wandering from yours with me :)
that being said, i'm still searching for that faithful husband type. any suggestions?
I hurt even more for my niece who found out about betrayal of the sisterhood at age 6.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry but no, I cannot agree to call someone that is intimate with someone else’s spouse a sister, a friend or anything more than a troubled person that lacks self-respect and very much needs help. If you have ever been the one cheated on you may understand. And if I had ever done it perhaps I would understand your point – but I would not, so I don’t.
ReplyDeleteWhile there is a lot of question around why would we forgive the man before the other woman you have to remember that we were at one time or are still in love with the man, have built a life with him, may have children with him. Typically we do not have that, or likely never have had that, bond with the woman. We do not look at our babies and see her face; we do not look around our homes and remember good time and loving family moments with her. We see him in all of those things, in her we see the woman that took those things. In her we see a home wrecker and often pure rage toward her.
It is not to say that he would not have found someone else, but “she” epitomizes why the wife now cannot sleep, physically cannot eat. Suddenly there is no color in the world and she looks at her beautiful children that they brought into this world together and simply weeps for them. How is Mommy going to explain that Daddy is not going to live with us anymore? That the last X many years have been a joke and that I have failed at this marriage thing? Because yes, even though it was not her who cheated, she will wonder what she did wrong. Or is Mommy now going to do the hardest thing she has ever done in her life and try to understand how he could do this to her, to their children, to their family, and to himself.
It takes years of work to regain who you are after going through this. And it is even harder if you are still in love with the spouse and make a commitment to pull apart the life you thought you had, find the root cause – and it is typically buried very deep in both of you – and work at recreating a life together, at rebuilding your family.
So no, I am sorry but I would never call someone that would put herself into this situation a sister. I would call her a troubled person that needs to think about her actions and how they affect others. And I would call her selfish. I find “there but by the grace of God go I” to be a cliché. We don’t say that about murderers, why should an adulteress get a pass?
KD – I am so sorry for what you are going through. Please know that you are not alone and that while it will come in waves and at moments that you are not expecting it to cause you to breakdown, it does get better. It does get easier and the pain does fade. I cannot stress enough how important it is that you talk to someone. Find a good therapist and get all of the emotion and pain and rage out, you cannot keep it inside or it will eat you up. You deserve better and so do your little girls.
Anonymous 4:01pm "We don’t say that about murderers, why should an adulteress get a pass?"
ReplyDeleteThat's a good point. But at some point don't we all have to forgive no matter what the crime for our own sanity? If we don't forgive (not saying that we have to forget) but if we don't forgive we are just continuing to allow that person who hurt us to live rent free in our minds.
1st, i too promise to never be that woman. i respect myself and my fellow sisters too much for that.
ReplyDelete2nd, i think an important thing to remember, as hard as it is, we don't forgive for the benefit of the person who betrayed us. we forgive for our own benefit. the longer you hold on to your hurts, and refuse to let go and forgive, the more they just fester inside you, and cause more damage.
forgiveness isn't about saying everything thing you did to me is fine, let's be best friends. it's about saying, you have done me wrong, but i'm going to move on now, and not dwell on your mistakes any longer.
forgiveness isn't usually easy, and it's usually a continual work of progress, but it's something we owe to ourselves to do, to make ourselves whole and healthy.
Jennifer and MaryAnn - You are right. Thank you for taking the time to remind me. Some days it is hard to remember that.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteI find you amazing.
"Forgiveness is letting go of the hope that your past could have been any different."
- Someone Smart...Lilly Tomlin, maybe?
For Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteCourage
Anne Sexton
It is in the small things we see it.
The child's first step,
as awesome as an earthquake.
The first time you rode a bike,
wallowing up the sidewalk.
The first spanking when your heart
went on a journey all alone.
When they called you crybaby
or poor or fatty or crazy
and made you into an alien,
you drank their acid
and concealed it.
Later,
if you faced the death of bombs and bullets
you did not do it with a banner,
you did it with only a hat to
comver your heart.
You did not fondle the weakness inside you
though it was there.
Your courage was a small coal
that you kept swallowing.
If your buddy saved you
and died himself in so doing,
then his courage was not courage,
it was love; love as simple as shaving soap.
Later,
if you have endured a great despair,
then you did it alone,
getting a transfusion from the fire,
picking the scabs off your heart,
then wringing it out like a sock.
Next, my kinsman, you powdered your sorrow,
you gave it a back rub
and then you covered it with a blanket
and after it had slept a while
it woke to the wings of the roses
and was transformed.
Later,
when you face old age and its natural conclusion
your courage will still be shown in the little ways,
each spring will be a sword you'll sharpen,
those you love will live in a fever of love,
and you'll bargain with the calendar
and at the last moment
when death opens the back door
you'll put on your carpet slippers
and stride out.
I sent it to a friend last week. The third stanza reminded me of a warrior surviving betrayal. Like You, Anonymous.
Love, G
Jennifer and MaryAnn,
ReplyDeleteYes. All of this. Thank you.
Much Love.
I too am one of the 21 - just over a year into a one-time infidelity and just beginning to see the light that is thinking we might actually be OK. This song keeps being sung at church and makes me weep every single time. I love it and it hurts - and comforts - me to my core.
ReplyDeleteAnne’s Song
By Beth Lowe
I will not give you more than your heart has room to hold. I will not give you more than you can do. I will lead you on your way; I will hold your hand. I am here. I am love. I am in you.
Lord, I am down and I know my heart is full. I need You here, but I know I am alone. Can You hear my heart? It’s silent to the world; can You feel what I can’t let others see?
I will not give you more than your heart has room to hold. I will not give you more than you can do. I will lead you on your way; I will hold your hand. I am here. I am love. I am in you.
Weary is my soul of the games that some play. When I say you are my friend can that be all that I say? Can I be who I am, full of hurt, full of pain? Will You catch me when I run and when I fall?
I will not give you more than your heart has room to hold. I will not give you more than you can do. I will lead you on your way, I will hold your hand. I am here. I am love. I am in you.
You say You will hold me in arms full of love, so why am I broken, I don’t feel them now. I can’t feel the still-ness, I don’t know who you are. I can’t see I cannot reach; Lift me up into Your peace. I’m not strong, but I know I need you.
I will not give you more than your heart has room to hold. I will not give you more than you can do. I will lead you on your way, I will hold your hand. I am here. I am love. I am in you.
"I sort of have to disagree with Amy as well and please don't feel like we are ganging up on you because I don't mean it to be that way but I don't like sex right now and out of guilt just had sex with my husband after 3 months of not doing it.
ReplyDeleteI have my own issues and he knows about them and I'm working on them. Does it suck for him; it sure as hell does but he's not going to stray because of it. I don't think sex in a marriage is "that" important that it "should" make them stray.
There are so many other ways to be intimate with your partner. I seriously could just sit down and watch a movie with him at night (if I could stay awake that long) and he would be super happy."
Okay. I'm not being ganged up on. Whatever you say.
I laughed out loud when I read that though.
Seriously, if you have a man who would be just as happy with a chick flick as with a sex life, that's one unique guy. I know a lot of women believe that while it "sucks" for her husband that he isn't getting sex, he'll just put up with it indefinitely. Many, many of them end up learning that they're quite wrong.
I wonder if he knew he was signing up for sex once every three months. Maybe he did. I don't know.
It's kind of hard for me to sit here and be judged by a woman who admits to only satisfying her husband's sexual needs once quarterly and who doesn't think it's a very big deal.
I'm truly sorry I ever commented on this thread as I obviously don't fit in here.
It would be interesting to get some input from somebody who is actually male, but I don't think that's going to happen. It's too bad because if we did, maybe people here wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what I'm saying.
I still don't think it's an "excuse" for an affair, but I do think that cutting a husband off is usually breaking the marriage vows (unless you have some entirely different arrangement which is fine). Having an affair isn't right. It's probably worse than withholding from somebody. But what do you want to be? Morally superior? Or married?
I wonder why some women expect their husbands to do things that they don't necessarily "feel" like, but are so unwilling to return the favor.
I heard of a guy recently who stayed up making posters and wrapping TP in confetti because it was what his wife wanted. I'm sure that he didn't think that kind of thing was a big deal. But he knew his wife thought it was a big deal. A lot of guys do things like that because they want to make their wives happy. I think it's great. I just don't know why so many (not all) women are convinced that it should only go one way.
"But I don't feel like it!!! Mehhhhhh!"
Then these women freak when their husbands so much as go on the internet to get... well you know.
This is especially common in my community of Utard. Don't be sexual with me. Don't be sexual at all.
What are you doing down there on the computer, honey? Notting Hill is playing on TV tonight and I popped popcorn!
Just cut off his balls and stick them in on a doily. Seriously.
Anonymous - well put. In time you will heal. Forget? Never. Heal, in time....And may be burn in his personal hell when his time comes. Ditto what Glennon said. I myself think cheating is a big mess and would never do it. Besides what good could possible come of it? Not.a.thing. With older age comes wisdom. I relish that wisdom and the strength I have in knowing I will never create such pain to another woman - or to my husband/family.
ReplyDeleteAmy, I hear you saying that sex in a marriage is important, and I agree. My problem is that when I have sex with my husband as a favor he knows the difference. We have spent A LOT of time talking about this over the years and it really has helped. He's beginning to understand that sometimes I'm into it and sometimes I'm not, and if I pretend to be into it I might really get into it . . . or I might not. But in any case, it's a way that I can show love for him. I think he's beginning to see my point and I'm discovering that the more I "pretend" the more I actually find myself enjoying sex despite my fatigue/PMS/weariness of being touched and needed all day. And stranger still, it turns out that we enjoy doing other things together a lot more when we're having more frequent sex. It's like the act itself breaks down many of our barriers.
ReplyDeleteIt also sounds like you don't think lack of sex is a reason for an affair, and I have to agree with that as well. Like someone (Glennon?) said above, problems get solved by talking about them, not by running from them with another person. Still, I do think it's easier for a man to "run" when he has an available excuse (albeit a crappy one) of a virtually sexless marriage.
On the other hand, I actually once knew someone who was having an affair AND having sex at home with the spouse 3-4 times a week. So you never can tell . . .
:)MK
mk, there ya go.
ReplyDeleteAmy, there's room here for everyone and all of our opinions whether we agree or not. I hope you'll stick around and hopefully enjoy it. I don't have much to add as far as the sex thing because I don't use sex as a weapon, of course, I do tell my man that I'm too tired if I am and he does too. It's ok, we're allowed.
Amy, I think you're HILARIOUS, one, and make some GREAT points, two. I have a feeling there are many people reading and agreeing with a lot of the points you say even if they're not writing. You're describing a point that obviously makes some people uncomfortable and I think that's what Glennon wants for us too....think outside the box and consider another point of view. You're SOOO TOTALLY RIGHT that we expect our husbands to treat US like queens, then dismiss what they'd like more of too. Also, I don't mind the **** ;) Just sayin'!
ReplyDeleteCan I get a big "YA-YA" for Sisterhood?!
ReplyDeleteI just had to do that.
"YA-YA!!" I love that movie.
Okay.
ReplyDeleteI think we can all agree that people are pretty complicated. And that marriages are at least as complicated as the people in them. And that sex lives are probably the most complex component of those marriages and complexities. Right?
That being said... there's something in me that just screams "bullshit" when people start talking about "sexless" marriages and affairs. 'Cause I think that our society, by equating male sex with intimacy, and by making many men to feel that the physical act of sex is all they need to satisfy their mental and emotional needs for intimacy, we've created a massive problem that sex 5 days a week isn't going to cure.
And beyond that, I can assure anyone here that no one need tell a woman with sexual dysfunctions and intimacy issues that she's driving her husband away by not being physically available to him. Just trust me on this one. I was molested 2 years ago; it was a LONG time before my husband could touch me without my feeling completely dirty, used and violated. There was a stretch where once every 3 months was a dream. And you know what? No, it's not what he signed up for when he married me. What he signed up for was fidelity, for better or for much, much worse.
And the truth is, he Gets It. He understands that what he needs and wants is intimacy. Yes, sex is great when I'm emotionally invested in it. But if I'm not, he'd be far, far happier holding hands on the couch than going through the motions of sex when neither one of us is engaged in what we're doing. 'Cause if the issue is just having sex, then you're reducing an act of marital intimacy to meat slapping. And if my husband was the kind of guy who felt like that was all he wanted, he wouldn't be my husband.
Look, all I'm saying is that people are complex, whether it be a married woman who just *can't* be physically available to her husband... or a husband who desperately wants intimacy from his wife... or a woman who wants so badly to feel loved that she's willing to believe the lies of a man whose wife is wondering where he is. And that's why I can't bring myself to judge any of them as *bad.* 'Cause at the end of the day.... we're all pretty busted up, broken, and in need of just a little bit of understanding.
Or at least a lack of judgment.
Much Love.
Sharyn, you're super brave and I applaud your honesty. And I applaud your husband too, who sounds like a keeper.
ReplyDeleteAnd you're right . . . we certainly do all deserve understanding. I would hope we could all agree on that. We'll even try to understand the Monkee who tried to make out with Craig the other day at the mall.
:)MK
As Glennon said from the outset, this is a complicated issue. The vast majority of us are not husbands, therefore we aren't in a position to speak for husbands. We are only in a position, really, to speak for ourselves. As women we can only promise not to betray our partners and/or promise not to be party to someone else betraying their partner.
ReplyDeleteThe reasons for dissatisfaction in a relationship are as many and as complex as the people in relationships. But as complex as relationships are, the solution is rather elegant in its simplicity. If you are dissatisfied with your relationship, talk to your partner about what could make you more satisfied. If your partner is unable or unwilling to provide what you need, then you need to determine whether or not you can stay in the relationship based on that information. If you are unable or unwilling to have that conversation by yourself, then seek the help of clergy, therapy, counseling. Then and only then should you leave the relationship and seek a new partner, after exhausting all options and considering all factors. While it is a simple solution, it is not easy to do in all cases.
However, there is nothing that justifies, excuses or validates betraying your partner, even that partner's behavior (or lack thereof).
And, while there may be those that don't mind foul language or implied foul language, there are others that do. Better to offend no one, than to risk offending anyone.
Thank you Sharyn, you said exactly what I was trying to say but obviously was not able to communicate through my post.
ReplyDeleteThank you for saying what you said.
My husband will be posting his comments later
ReplyDelete:-)
I would like to officially submit a grievance and my opposition to the term "meat slapping".
ReplyDeleteI'm also anxiously awaiting Jennifer's husband's comments.
I hope he has been assured that there will be no negative...er..."ramifications" if he speaks freely. Otherwise, I fear it might be something along the lines of
Honey, could you please go and comment on this blog and say that all men who always want sex are shallow?
"Gosh, honey, you're right! Men who want sex are shallow. I just don't get those guys. (internal monologue: Can we go have sex now that I said the right thing?)"
Incidentally, I don't think society has told men they need sex. I think it is (gasp) evolution.
But that's what you get for asking an atheist her opinion on the subject. (I realize that nobody asked. I usually like to pretend though. It makes me feel less opinionated.)
I think people have affairs for many reasons and a lot of times it has nothing to do with sex. It could be because the exciting, attentive person they fell in love with is now 50 pounds heavier and preoccupied with facebook, it could be because they're bored and ashleymadison.com is just so stinkin' easy. It could be because the girl on world of warcraft "gets him" way more than his wife who is busy caring for their kids. Are any of these valid reasons for cheating on your spouse? What does athiesm have to do with sex? I'm not sure what any of this has to do with women promising each other to not sleep with other people's husbands. WHERE'S THE LOVE. heh. ok. done.
ReplyDeleteYea. What the good wench said - exactly.
ReplyDeleteAnd, if you haven't been to this dark dark place, please tread a little more lightly on the hearts of those of us who have been and are in the pain of this right now.
I second what the good wench and anonymous 7:31 a.m said - I make the promise to never sleep with the husband of another woman and also ask for compassion for those of us who are working through the pain and confusion and scariness of having it done to them. It can be like a bad dream you just can't quite wake up from.
ReplyDeleteMy name is Kris. I am Jennifer's husband. I've never done this before but she asked me to read this blog, something she talks about a lot and tells me about but she said today's topic was something I should read.
ReplyDeleteDid I marry Jennifer thinking that our sex life was going to drastically change? No. Did I marry Jennifer because of our sex life? No. I married Jennifer because she is a wonderful and caring individual. She was a single Mother when I met her and she is a strong and very independent woman and I admirred her determination to do anything for her daughter, who I now am blessed to call my daughter.
As for responding to Amy's post I don't feel I need to justify to you or anyone else about our sex life but I will say this. Yes it sucks that we may not have sex as often as I want to and NO she's not telling me what I should say here so you are wrong in your thinking Amy but if it makes you feel better thinking of a "monologue" that me and my wife had go for it.
Being married isn't easy but I didn't make the vows that I promised to uphold to walk away from my wife and my family for sex with another person. I respect my wife and my kids too much to do that to them. If our marriage wasn't working out it wouldn't be because of our sex life, it would probably be because the woman can't cook. Kidding of course but I think you get my point.
As Jennifer said in her post intimacy isn't always about having sex and yes, I would be happy if she would sit down with me at night and hold hands with me while watching a movie. Would I rather be having sex, yes of course but sex is not the most important thing in our marriage and I also promise never to have stray from my marriage and have sex with another woman's man....or wife.
In closing I love my wife.
P.S. for all the women who are going through the pain of a cheating spouse, I'm sorry. Not all men are like that.
Kris for president!
ReplyDeleteI've been worried about this comment thread. Worried, in particular, that some of our Monkees might be finding this post to be a source of stress and sadness rather than a source of support and love, which was how I intended it.
ReplyDeleteBut now I'm so grateful that it took the turn it did. Because it gave Jennifer the opportunity to read what a special man she married. And that must be comforting to her. And so I'm happy. All unfolds the way it should.
So much love.
G
We've come a long way from my own Guest post huh Glennon?
ReplyDeleteI'm one very lucky girl.
yes, girl. we have done hard things.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteat the gym today Adrianne and I were talking about my concerns about this comment thread.
ReplyDeleteHere was my favorite part of the conversation:
Me: It's guess it's just hard caring about everyone's feelings.
Adrianne: I guess so. I wouldn't know.
Kris for President! I love that you love our Jennifer! You are two lucky and blessed peoples.
ReplyDeleteOkay, ladies, I've got something to say to us women.
A common thread I pulled from this discussion makes me fear for the female libido... not our intimacy, but our sex drive.
Women Love Sex Too!
Oh, it can be difficult if you've gone through some things. Trust me. I know.
But if you are able to and Heaven knows I hope we are all able to... you will love sex too.
Let me make it crystal clear that Sex is not Love, it won't build a marriage and it sure as heck can not tear it down.
LOL! My password was "commin"
ReplyDeleteI love Adrianne. I'm going to come to your gym and steal her for the day. Hope that ok.
ReplyDeleteLMAO Chimmy, that is hilarious.
ReplyDeleteLet me make it crystal clear that Sex is not Love, it won't build a marriage and it sure as heck can not tear it down.
ReplyDeleteGo chimmy!
I use the term "meat slapping" intentionally -- because that's what I think of emotionless, obligatory sex. It's vulgar, meaningless, and empty, and ultimately creates more problems than the one it supposedly alleviates. I don't think of my body, such as it is, as more than a flesh casing for my animus, my mind and my heart. If those are detached from sex... it's just icky to me.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I never said society makes men "need" sex; I said that society has created a mentality that says that sex is a means to itself, rather than a means to the end of intimacy and connectedness with one's partner. If a man (or woman) believes that the answer to intimacy is *more sex*, what are the chances those needs will actually be met by his spouse? I think this is why so many people (though NOT all, by any means) who have affairs turn into repeat offenders; because they don't actually need, or even really want, more sex.
There are lots of theories on affair-proofing your marriage, but honestly, at the end of the day, the only genitals -- and heart, for that matter -- over which we have any control are our own. I promise I won't use mine to defer a man's heart from his wife. I also trust my husband and my sisters to do the right thing when I'm not around.
Much Love.
-Sharyn
P.S. As to language... I write how I speak. I'm in the Navy; sometimes I talk like a Sailor. I apologize if what offends anyone, but, well... you'd probably be offended if you met me in person, too. I love you, anyway.
Sharyn,
ReplyDeleteYou're smart. Reallllly smart.
Love,
G
G--
ReplyDeleteMy Chaplain is smart, I just have a good memory.
Love you. No April fools.
-Sharyn
Hi Glennon. I'm one of your new readers brought in by the mountain posts, which I love and I've read over and over. What it means to be faithful to a relationship has been on my mind a lot lately too, for very personal reasons, and I feel compelled to add my two cents.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I am coming to realize that life as a grown-up is far more complicated than I ever imagined. It is very easy to say "I would NEVER do this or that" until you find yourself in a circumstance you hadn't before imagined, and find yourself, much to your surprise, looking at this or that with new eyes. Consider a man whose wife suffers from a devastating illness which alters her personality, then takes her metal facilities completely, years before killing her body. If her husband stays by her side and nurses her through to the end of that illness, but quietly starts seeing (and sleeping with) another woman on the side, a woman whose love and support is able to sustain him as he cares for his wife, should we condemn him as a cheater and her as a home-wrecker? Should he instead have divorced his wife and left her completely alone to pursue an "honest" relationship with the other woman? Life is complicated, friends. And just as some food for thought, at this point in my life, I know more women who have "cheated" on their relationships than men.
Second, I just finished reading a brand new book called Sex at Dawn by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jetha, and I am enthusiastically recommending it to everyone I know (and now, apparently, some people I don't know too). It looks at how human sexuality evolved through the eons of pre-history, and how many of those evolved traits are at odds with the way relationships and sex are defined in modern culture. It is insightful, scientifically rigorous, wickedly funny, and brilliantly good reading. It also has some very interesting things to say about female sexuality. It does not condone or excuse cheating. It does lay out a new set of facts (and reinterprets a lot of old ones) and lets the reader decide what to do with them.
I agree that something in our collective lives is very broken. I do not think it can be fixed by increased willpower or vows of sisterhood, which unfortunately remind me a lot of those vows of abstinence the conservative church likes to have its teenagers take (and it doesn't take very long looking at study data to see how effective those aren't). But I do fervently hope we can find something to do about this problem of love and sex and fidelity, so that we can stop destroying ourselves and breaking each other's hearts.
Gretchen,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comments. I completely agree, particularly with your final paragraph. I've spent far too much time reading through all of these comments, and I have very mixed feelings. I think you and meghan really hit it with the complexity of it all. I appreciate everyone's good intentions, but I am well-aware of how individual and complex the problems surrounding an affair can be.